Ccl Meeting and Events
15-28 November 2004

by Carolanne Reynolds, Editor

This issue's sections:
= Main Agenda items for 22nd
= Notices
= Some Events/Mtgs to Nov 28
= Nov 15th Ccl Mtg Notes (videotape in Library), see partial transcript  after Events section:
. VD excuses himself wrt potential conflict of interest re srs' housing in 5.1b;
. Sewerage and drainage rates increased 10% also wrt water rates with public input extended to Dec 1st, loan authorization of ~$7m
. PQP:
  - Streamkeepers' plea re mapping and protection of ephemeral creeks (but question re confirmation of same yet to be answered)
  - one of Cclr Durman's finest 'hours' expressing horrified reaction BPP has clearcut -- with staff permission and contrary to Ccl's intention as well as without their knowledge! -- area to be limbed and thinned BELOW school part to be made into public/green space, and wants monitoring and penalties (I completely agree with him! dreadful abuse or omission of process) and there will be a report  (see partial transcript in ccl mtg notes below)
- Yours Truly thanks him, reminds Ccl that I'd asked about a survey of trees there when they gave approval (ie before work started) but apparently that was not done; asks about calculation of 'uplift' [obviously one of many factors] as helpful in consideration of cmnty benefits (policy has still not come to Ccl) when increasing density/changing zoning for an applicant (see partial transcript in ccl mtg notes below); verifies new rules that three readings can be passed then bylaw advertised
- 3,216 electors needed to 'disapprove' a bylaw; how much is in park acquisition fund?
= Abbreviated Nov 22nd Ccl mtg Agenda
= Quotation
NB: Budget 2005 material/information now available; give input to Ccl
Also understand there may be Open Houses by Millennium on Evelyn Drive devt Tues (23rd) and Thurs (25th)

>>>  MAIN ITEMS <<<  for Monday's Ccl mtg (Nov 22)

=  Delegation re Ambleside Biz Area // Helmet Standards
=  2005 Budget Presentation (Input to Ccl Tuesday Night - see mtgs below)
=  2003 Drinking Water Quality Annual Report
=  Water Conservation Strategy -- Mandatory Water Meter Regulations (Waterworks Regulation Amendment Bylaw for THREE readings).
=  Water Meter Loan Authorization Bylaw FOR ADOPTION ($6.85m)
=  Correspondence: Minutes from Arts/Culture Strategy, Sports/Rec Fac Planning; closure of Shaw Studios; Fraser Basin Conference; bears

>>>  NOTICES  <<<
>  $475,000 grant to NV for new building housing Archives!
Great to see such support of heritage and exciting for NV
Many constituents have contacted me regarding the stretch of Highway 1 just west of Capilano River since the terrible accident last week.  It would be premature to presume what actually happened.  I am asking residents, however, to provide me with their personal experiences on this section of the Upper Levels Highway, so that I may inform and advise the Minister of Transportation.
Please write to or #409 - 545 Clyde Avenue, West Vancouver, B.C., V7T 1C5.
Ralph Sultan, P.Eng., MLA, West Vancouver-Capilano
For sale on-line at
and also:
WV - Ambleside Brewery, Bean Around the World, Ferry Building Gallery, Haute Chocolate, Lens & Shutter, Pharmasave in Caulfeild, Valentine's for Hair
NV - 32 Books, Opus Framing, PK Automotive
City - Melriche's Coffeehouse (1244 Davie and 1043 Mainland)
Bowen - Phoenix Photography
For Further information, please contact:  Ernie Corlett at 604-921-5992
Actually she'd had her birthday August 6th during the Harmony Arts Festival so was 98 -- that means in her 99th year.  What a splendid life.  How lucky we were to have such a generous patron of the arts and of WV in particular.  The memorial will be on Sunday, Nov 28th, at the Kay Meek Centre for the Performing Arts and since seating limited to 500, please RSVP to Janik Chopin 981.1175 or 913 3634, or email

===  EVENT/MTG LIST to Nov 28th  ===

+ MONDAY, November 15th +
= 8:30 - 10:30am = Arts & Culture Strategy Select Cmte, M Hall
= 7 - 10pm = Regular Ccl Mtg/2005 Department Budget Presentations (Live Broadcast), Ccl Chambers ***Budget item postponed to next week***  [See transcript of ccl mtg in section below]

+ TUESDAY, November 16th +
= 3:30 - 5:30pm = Youth Advisory Cmte, M Hall
= 7:30pm = WRA - AGM, Gleneagles Community Centre
                Speaker:  Josie Chuback, Community Services Manager
                Topic: Gleneagles (Panabode) Clubhouse: Alternative Futures

+ WEDNESDAY, November 17th +
= 5 - 7pm = WV Chamber of Commerce = Business After Business Networking Event, Sponsored by Members For Members, Chamber Boardroom
= 5:30 - 7:00pm = Finance Adv Cmte, Hall (Leases for non-profit groups on M land; Investments)
= 7 - 9pm = Public 2005 Budget Presentation by Staff, Seniors' Centre [staff there but hardly any public but about three other mtgs on at the same]
= 7 - 9pm = Board of Variance, Ccl Chambers (3390 Thompson Cr; 2115 Palmerston)

+ THURSDAY, November 18th +
= 2 - 3:30pm = Library: "Finding Book Review For Your Book Club",  Registration Required, 925 7405
= 6 - 8pm = N.S. Family Court & Youth Justice Cmte,  CNV M Hall, Conf. Room A
= 7pm = WV 2010 Olympic/Paralympic Cmte - Community Focus Groups by invitation/RSVP
= 7:30pm = WV Streamkeeper Society and NSh Streamkeepers - St. Stephen's, 885 - 22nd St
Special Presentation: Dr. Kees Groot on Migration, Orientation, and Navigation of Pacific Salmon

+ FRIDAY, November 19th +
Fri/Sat: November 19-20, The City Program, SFU Vancouver (Harbourside)
Interest-Based Problem Solving for Urban Professionals: Negotiating Solutions and Relationships that Work; Fee $460; call 291 5079 for info

+ SATURDAY, November 20th +
= 9 - 2pm = Annual Cranberry Faire at St Monica's (Nelson & Rosebery, HBay)
Christmas cafe, good-things table, Christmas baskets and decorations (921 9112)
= 3pm =  Northshore Wetland Partners at WV Youth Centre, Ambleside Park

+ SUNDAY, November 21st +
= 10 - 4pm = Christmas Craft Fair at Cmnty Centre and Seniors' Activity Centre

+ MONDAY, November 22nd +
= 8:30 - 10:30am = Arts & Culture Strategy Select Cmte, M Hall [CANCELLED - MOVED to Nov 29]
= 10 - 11:30am at the Library: Finding Reviews for Your Book Club (ph 925 7405)
= 7pm = Ccl Mtg with 2005 dept budget presentations  [see abbreviated agenda at end]

+ TUESDAY, November 23rd +
= 4:30 - 6:30pm = Engg AC in Ccl Chamber [CANCELLED]
= 7 - 9pm = Evelyn Drive Open House, Sentinel Secondary: new info (six storeys?)
= 7 - 9pm =  Resident Comments on 2005 Budget to Council in Ccl Chamber

+ WEDNESDAY, November 24th +
= 9am =  Sports & Rec Fac Planning Cmte mtg
= 4 - 6pm =  Police Board (moved from Nov 25) - Chamber of Commerce Board Room
= 5 - 7pm =  Planning AC [MOVED to Dec 8 and Wetmore's on the agenda!]
= 7pm = BPAHA AGM in Sentinel Secondary Cafeteria
= 7 - 8:30pm = Bridging the Narrows: The Story of the Lions' Gate, illustrated presentation by Don Luxton, author (and I'd guess he'll have copies of his book there for you to buy an autographed copy!), at Museum & Archives (Gertrude Lawson House)  [exhibit - British Properties: A Community in the Making now in place]

+ THURSDAY, November 25th +
=  DAC mtg moved to Dec 9
=  Police Bd moved to Nov 24th
= 5 - 7pm = N.S.A.C.D.I - CNV Municipal Hall, Conf. Rm A
= 7 - 9pm = Evelyn Drive Open House, Cedardale School: new info (six storeys?)

+ SATURDAY, November 27th +
= 11 - 4pm =  2010 Olympic/Paralympic Cmte Open House - Park Royal South
= 1 - 3pm = "Tracing Your Family Tree" at Museum (GL House), by Lorraine Irving, BC Genealogical Society
Fee: $25; Age: 16 and up

+ SUNDAY, November 28th +
= 2pm = Memorial for Kay Meek at Performing Arts Centre, 1700 Mathers, please RSVP as indicated above in NOTICES

===  SOME MAIN POINTS from Ccl Mtg Nov 15th  ===

PLEASE NOTE:  THIS DRAFT TRANSCRIPT IS TYPED DURING MTG, always check with tape b/c impossible to catch everything.

~7pm start (times given so if you watch tape you can select portion)

Before commencement, the Mayor read a tribute to Kay Meek and recited the long list of organizations and projects (VSO, Academy of Music, seawall, Dundarave Pier, WV Fdn, and a host of others) she supported so generously.  She died the same evening as the opening performance at the  Kay Meek Centre for the Performing Arts at the age of 98.  A service will be held at the Centre on Sunday Nov 28 at 2pm.

2.         APPROVAL OF AGENDA -- changes to 5.4 (pages 137 - 140) and addition of 4.1a, Upper Levels safety; moving items of Correspondence to action items.
3.         ADOPTION OF MINUTES - Council Meeting Minutes, Oct 25 and Nov 01

4.         DELEGATIONS
4.1       J. Van Luven, St. James Community Service Society, regarding North Shore Youth Safe House
[statistical review attached to report]
2003, 73 youth, 36% boys; this year so far 68 youth so far, 50-50 M/F; av age 18 last year, 17 this year
average stay eight days, some stay a matter of hours
family conflict, youth left or got kicked out
from detox or left another shelter
2003 refused 11 youth access to the house, eight for inappropriate referrals
this year turned away 22 and 13 for safety concerns, mostly use of / addiction to crystal meth
runaway, couch-surfer -- all in statistics
in both 2003 and 2004 28% from WV
shortfall $250K so asking $50K from WV (shortfall starts monthly April next year)
longest stays more successful
[JF asked how defined and what next
MMgr said will discuss whether through grant process or budget]
VD: problem crystal meth, didn't quite understand
Ans: safety of the house = ppl with crystal meth not admitted in
danger is between ten and 14 days after stopping
VD: b/c become violent?
Ans: yes
VD: to?
Ans: violent to the other residents
G-J: asked mbr of Ccl to join and I did; learned a lot
people fanned out to help this girl right away; place to live, helped with university educ, Soroptimists help; small cmnty
know how effective it is; know some of the children here
statistics hugely helpful; if you cd supply them quarterly wd help
[motion of] thanks

5.         REPORTS

5.1a  UPPER LEVELS SAFETY -- wrt accident
Dir/Engg: brought forward b/c of the tragic accident
looking for ways to address
VD: before we start, our condolences to the family
I was asked by a mbr of the press to comment -- clear I wasn't commenting on the crash, that's for police however I've lived on the NSh for going on 30 years and have driven that numerous times and it is dangerous.  Amazing how many cut that corner, going over the line.
Capilano intersection, ppl enter slowly; ppl who regularly use this, truckdrivers, generally pull into left lane and then cut back around the corner but if traffic on both sides of them they can't
Police today said this year there have been 34 accidents between Westview and Taylor Way
barrier to stop people going through
opinions vary: camber, hill, speeding
The Minister contacted me on Friday said it was a safe bend, no one killed there in ten years; surprised how defensive he was
just asked staff to look at: wider, better lighting, or--
work with Min of Hwys
Sop: probs like planing heading west on a rainy day
some years ago improved, bridge, put up concrete barriers
it still is a corner heading east that is very severe, comes up quickly and signage not proper
evident from many people I've talked to
it's one thing to say it's safe -- if a bit over speed will be pulled in one direction or another
the other day, sad as it is, have to work harder and harder
hope govt will come up with a solution
RD: support; think we shd include NV, some of the most dangerous spots on their side
accident took place just over the line; encourage the Minister to speak to NV and WV
drove it almost every day for 38 years; that section very poorly patrolled from Second Narrows; WV patrolled very well but RCMP doesn't -- understand they're short 14 for hwy patrol
G-J: driving the US hwys, trucks have to travel more slowly
tragedy for this family; won't let them down; make that hwy as safe as possible
Mayor: thank councillors; was in Calgary found out about it from TV

VD: I will excuse myself for a (potential) conflict of interest; I am a board mbr of a public company that is the second largest seniors' housing developer in Canada and I note one of the uses the Planning Dept is suggesting for this is srs' housing.

He didn't excuse himself for Amica on Clyde, did he?
What criteria is being used?  is there a difference?
wonder what category Evelyn Drive will come under...........}

5.1       Wetmore Lands - Proposed Use and Disposition
Designated Presenter:  Director of Planning, Lands & Permits
[gave background]
purchased from Endowment Fund
Staff report: looked at various uses
in staff's opinion shd be residential or mixed commercial/residential
ht restrictions, density, go out for bids
prior to Ccl consideration, put out to adv cmtes, to public for comment by mid-Dec
RD: we purchased in 2001 for $5.56m and thought might need for rec purposes but may not need it but will have to return money to the Fund
G-J: for alternative forms of single-fam housing
wd like to see a new model of resid enclave; by park, but through over to the school or swimming pool; looking for a walkable quieter --
like to see that concept
relative to that, q about Gordon Ave travel study
SJN: N D Lea, consultants, starting study; report that they've been retained and timetable will come to Ccl; anticipate that will take the next couple of months and involving residents
G-J: there are single-family residents already there
don't want to see much more than three storeys
Sop: like also to have it passed on the the Parks and Env Cmte [PEAC]
we cd do a lot without affecting that park
wd not like to make a decision until vetted by public
I don't see it as a high area devt; it has to fit the area
don't know if shd be housing or not; wait and see what [public/cmtes] comes up with
JF: seems more practical to PEAC once know what's there
Section 3 -- those principles very good; .....adjacent, pivotal.....; financial
we paid owner for "highest and best use" so hope get back what we borrowed
consider what that means
Mayor: acquired, whole purpose was to control the use of this particular piece property
hope a profit, want to realize our investment
JF: while Fulton has sing-fam homes there are condominiums across and along Ave; interesting nbrhd
G-J: wasn't on Ccl when bought and realize pay back Endowment Fund but important b/c Ccl owns the land, opp to show slightly increased density that can fit in
wd be easy to show a huge profit; but see how new form of housing can be in centre of WV
maximize that for the public good
Sop: on p 5; residential, cmnty use, civic centre use, rental, sp needs -- it's all around housing
we can also make a statement in another direction
make that money and more, doesn't necessarily have to be housing
THAT the November 04, 2004 report of the Director of Planning, Lands and Permits titled  "Wetmore Lands - Proposed Use and Disposition" be referred to the Planning Advisory Committee for review and advice on overall use, to the Design Advisory Committee on urban design considerations and to the public with a request for comment prior to December 15, 2004.

5.2       Wetmore Motors 2003 Ltd. - Licence Agreement - 2203 Marine Drive
Designated Presenter:  Director of Planning, Lands & Permits
RECOMMENDED: be received.
SJN: for continued occupation

5.3       Information Report on Lower Mainland Treaty Advisory Committee (LMTAC) Correspondence regarding "Fiscal Interests and Treaty Negotiations" and "Agricultural Land Reserve and Additions to Treaty Settlement Lands"
Designated Presenter:  Director of Administrative Services
RECOMMENDED: received for information

RB: info on fiscal interest
No 36 provides no cost to Ms
land transferred to First Nations cd impact on revenues
ALR changes; to enable farm use; Bill 27, May 2004, outlined a new process if agreement reached in principle
no provision for First Nations to consult with parties affected [eg Ms]
re Treaty Settlement Lands No 12 - local govt no transfer of fee simple; land use zoning negative impact; does not protect BC owners; this is not a willing buyer willing seller scenario
Lobby for consistent throughout BC
concern re pace of negotiations
JF is LMTAC rep and she may wish to comment
JF: very, very interesting circumstances our attention drawn to
Cmte of a colln of Ms who have banded together to discuss with negotiators (prov and fed govts) to try to understand what is going on.
First principles Mr Beauchamp mentioned have not been endorsed but are those of that cmte
Impact for example the Tsawwassen Band can ask parcels it wd like to be added so if you own land adjacent can be ceded; tantamount to expropriation but will have effect on value, some encumbrance
Considering prov govt committed to no fee simple, feel it's a contravention
will read from the press release:
not a willing buyer willing seller and not in BC property[owners'] interest
serious concerns to Minister Plant b/c of short time line
expected a handshake deal by Dec 15
important what sort of precedence, in Delta, sets
really don't understand, want resolution
urge you to avail yourself of this information -- see website
will make a copy available to the press; perhaps have them printed in the regional newspapers
VD: ev shd also understand this item is on the agenda b/c of the concern of the chairman of LMTAC and of what might happen
Mayor Drew is not particularly excitable; press release must mean important
at the table only prov/fed/First Nations
LMTAC there only to give advice
I've sat through a GVRD bd mtg and the fed govt negotiator refused to answer any questions (since GVRD not at table)
most of these negotiations are going on behind closed doors; much info to LMTAC passed on there so not able to pass on to you
this is like a fire bell going off
anyone reading this -- it will put you to sleep very fast
basically the Tsawwassen Band is changing the deal
Prov govt has said no freehold land wd be affected but now allowing Bands to indicate what lands they wd like to buy
they have ten years and if they want your land no one else will want it so affects value
taxation lost to M and prov yet to come up with any formula to make up for loss of that revenue
eg if Sq Nation were to indicate it wd like to buy Park Royal North, adjacent so they own South, it wd be a great loss
at Remembrance Day, our MP said going through Parliament, treaty with Sq; when I said presume that part wd be taken out but it says cannot be
Many don't understand what's going on
Fed govt trying to get out of Indian biz and will do whatever they can
for ex the Fisheries down on Marine Drive -- if given to Band, out of our control
out of planning
JC: native bands will be identifying land all over hell's half acre without restraint
an absolute nightmare
next 30 - 40 years, hate to think what might happen
G-J: add to motion add WV's support to principles, not just receiving this
readiness to negotiate but [needs] mechanism of consultation with non-aboriginal interests
we are at table and we are interested
policy issues need resolving
JF: whatever the protocols may be, the LMTAC chair has been writing letters to the prov govt for months with no response
in that case all the protocols in the world are to no avail
VD: anyone watching TV last night wd have seen Michael Harcourt and Jack Weisgerber saying all Ms going along and all happy; wonder if any have gone out and talked to any councillors
taken a high view of success rate
one going well, and hope all will go well, who doesn't want it to go properly/happily
send this to other districts in BC b/c I think once councillors start to talk to each other -- we do and we are concerned
public not up to speed, don't understand
or nothing we can do
Mayor: make a separate motion
VD: copy of our report to ev regional district and M in BC

5.4       Amendments to Business Licence Bylaw - Odours/Noise
{subsequently reported on with great mirth by the media -- TV, newspapers}

Designated Presenter:  Director of Administrative Services
re commercial facilities having effect on residences nearby (cleaning, restaurants, etc)
staff has attached a policy as to when applied

JC: 2.1 applies to restaurants, why not say noise/etc from businesses but what if it's a gas station
D/AS: staff considered that, consulted with solicitor, and felt regulated by other statutes, but that cd be altered
JC: p 141, second line under 2.1
just below there under C, must be recurring over ten days, that appears to be loose, doesn't refer to frequency
D/AS: discussion on that too, in ten days cd take action
JC: just one or two?
D/AS: more than one but more than one during a ten-day period
VD: does the inspector have to see, hear, smell twice in ten days?
D/AS: a resident cd, or staff cd observe
the issue of fairness, selection of ten days
Mayor: intent we're relying on nbrs re occurrence
VD: like sound/noise bylaw
nobody ever did anything b/c by the time bylaw officer/police turned out, noise had stopped
worried about that they occur after office hours, wee hours, and difficult to find a bylaw officer in wee hours standing on their balcony listening to noise/smelling
D/AS: now ability to make more inspections; and wd rely on declarations
VD: concerned about restaurant b/c bodyshops fully regulated but what about a restaurant preparing food for off-site sales -- he'd claim, I'm not a restaurant.  Preparing for fellow down the road, I'm not a restaurant, he is
will have to broaden your definition
JC: we're changing word to businesses
and will be changed in bylaw as well
following up, says written complaint wd strike that, cd be by phone
D/AS: intent is for staff to follow up; declaration, staff wd have to verify complaint
Mayor: written or verbal?
MMgr: I'd be concerned if relying only on verbal complaint
it wd be merely hearsay
although the verbal complaint can trigger, need some sort of written [for court]
JC: if waiting for written, odour, sound cd be long gone
MMgr: cd trigger it; need written [later]
Sop: haven't had this in past, now residents can complain and we can act
a lot of staff time spent
G-J: liable for a penalty of $10K so asking for it to be in writing is not too much to ask

RECOMMENDED: be introduced and read a first, second and third time.
RECOMMENDED: be posted and advertised in accordance with the Community Charter.

5.5       Open Tube Neon lighting for Handi Restaurant, 1340 Marine Drive
Designated Presenter:  Director of Planning, Lands & Permits

Sop: was it not our position in WV to use behind glass?  and no flashing neon tubes (though this is not flashing)
signs staring you right in the eyes as you come off the bridge at Pk Royal
not saying this isn't a nice sign
but my question is that if we didn't support this, wd it come down?
SJN: yes
VD: wd you have made this rec if it hadn't gone through?
SJN: yes
VD: you must have recommended against in past
SJN: don't know why allowed behind the window in past and not in front
maybe b/c garish but exceptions allowed if approved by DAC and Ccl
Sop moved it be NOT approved
[but staff] RECOMMENDED:  be approved.
G-J: this is a tiny little sign
it's not the same as the big Future Shop sign
JF: I'm the Ccl liaison for DAC and direct you to p 145, look under 4.3 that not only did DAC support but they further moved a policy (reviewed) -- allowed in Vancouver
change in cmnty taste and attitude
will not be supporting but wd like to make a subsequent motion re reviewing the sign bylaw
Sop: for all the good work the cmtes do, they don't make policy, Ccl does
how many times are people going to break the law
ev time someone comes forth
Design Panel doesn't care if breaks the law or not; they can come back
RD: we cd turn this down and have them come back later, cost them; favour change bylaw
JC: I will be supporting this motion, I agree sign bylaw shd be reviewed and said a year ago we'd do that
some months back someone wanted a backlit sign and we turned it down
this was put up without a permit, shd take it down, review policy, and they can come back
VD: was going to support approval b/c DAC had recommended it
but will now support this motion
object to people doing it without permits
right that restaurant had to take its sign down
let's modernize our sign bylaw, bring it into line, within culture of this cmnty, but if people do things without permit, they shd take them down
lady with the fence had to
this person didn't even have a permit

TIE [Sop, JC, VD voting not approved]

Mayor broke tie voting against not approving saying he'd looked at sign and not intrusive
the Hollyburn we turned down was a whole series of signs
RD: moved sign be approved
can we add staff revisit?
MMgr: Ccl has already asked staff to review, just a matter of adding open neon tubing, and review

TIE [RD, JF, G-J voting approved]

Mayor broke tie voting in favour of approval

VD can we not have a date b/c we've spoken of this for some time?
MMgr: don't want to pick one out of the air; we will report back.

5.6       Development Variance Permit No. 04-021 (2863 Bellevue Avenue)
Designated Presenter:  Director of Planning, Lands & Permits
SJN: re covered walkway; want roof wider than 6ft
retention of existing unauthorized accessory bldg not built by this owner
set back 2'6" not 4
house is on heritage inventory, support list
provision for [documentation/photographs?]
THAT The Municipal Clerk give notice that Development Variance Permit Application No. 04-021 (2863 Bellevue Avenue), which would provide for a new accessory building and covered walkway and retention of an existing accessory building will be considered at the meeting of Council on Monday, December 06, 2004.

5.7       Zoning Amendment Bylaw and Development Permit for property at 6390 Bay Street
Designated Presenter:  Director of Planning, Lands & Permits

SJN: for ex-service station; referred to PAC and DAC and both recommended to Ccl so now to public for consideration
Bruce McArthur, 6345 Nelson: wd like to make sure as this goes forward that the public benefit for the increase in the land value is clear to everybody
don't know what's included
there was some talk about burying, underground wiring
want to make sure what the public benefit is
SJN: devt of Horseshoe Bay not highest profit biz area
public benefit includes wider sidewalks, landscaping, guarantee no charge for parking below
have looked at electrical wiring on Royal Ave; wd result in elimination of two poles and another pole put in
advised $250K today (but report says $150K)
recommend that it be dealt with on a shared basis
rec that info be provided to public at public hearing
BA: understand those benefits re owner but this is Esso and shd somehow be involved in providing benefit
RD made motion:
RECOMMENDED: introduced and read a first time in short form.
said: PAC gave it high praise
on waterfront, encourage devt in a healthy way
great deal of support already, mtg at Yacht Club, about 80 people and all in favour
Sop: wd like to ask Mr Nicholls if architect or planning staff brought forth a view, uh wrt viewing
well-designed bldg
what are we going to see in HBay -- slope higher?
how do we get a vision of corridor view? shd it be part of this proposal?
SJN: both
we have requested and received from architect info re view corridors
quite level
don't expect behind, including motel, have to go over
info at public hearing
VD: building in front, once you do it once, will go all down the street
is that a good idea
SJN: three-storey bldg in this area is not significant
precedence of this corner -- wd be a catalyst for rejuvenation (since was gas station)
VD: interesting; three or four years ago against Ferry Corp three storeys but now this height okay
SJN: don't feel fair [comparison]
great deal of discussion and wider [landscaping?] --
VD: I fully remember the fight and surprised we're now told good planning for equal height.
RD made motion
RECOMMENDED: THAT Zoning Bylaw No. 2200, 1968, Amendment Bylaw No. 4408, 2004 and
Development Permit No. 04-015, both dealing with 6390 Bay Street, be considered at a concurrent Public Hearing and Public Meeting to be held on Monday December 06, 2004 at 7:00 pm in the Municipal Hall Council Chamber.

Mayor: meetings re budget coming, the first one Wednesday [Nov 17] at Srs' Centre

5.8       Sewer and Drainage Utility Fee Bylaw No. 3749, 1992 Amendment Bylaw No. 4411, 2004
Designated Presenter:  Director of Finance
This is for budget
This report says cut off for public input Nov 19 and that shd be corrected to Dec 1st

THAT Sewerage and Drainage rates for the year 2005 be increased by ten [per cent] (10%) to all categories of users, applied with rounding to the net of discount amount.
RECOMMENDED: be introduced and read a first and second time.
RECOMMENDED: THAT public comment on the proposed rates be received up to Nov 19, 2004.

Sop: recommended a consistent amount in the budget b/c can't do all at once
assuming the increase you're applying here is based on the idea that we're keeping consistent with that plan -- do we find we have to go to a higher amount to meet the needs
RL: believe referring to a pay-as-you-go and included
this includes operating costs for system breaks b/c what we have been short each year over the past several years
Sop: are we not fixing some of the breaks as we go along? since 2000?
Raymond Fung of Engg Dept:  the capital program has built into it some ramping effect
for recent years 2004 - 7, the replacement program is flat at $850K before ramping up; we've been noticing recently higher than expected breaks -- we have to attend to them, can't ignore
also higher than expected lift station expenses
the increase requested is to address these repairs
Sop: then handle on it in 2007?  not handled in six years?
RF: as we go, we have been keeping up but have seen increase in some of the metals
we are barely keeping up
Sop: why are we having an increase in water
D/Engg: GVRD was 12%

5.9       Waterworks Regulation Bylaw No. 3859, 1994, Amendment Bylaw No. 4406, 2004
Designated Presenter:  Director of Finance:
this is 2% more than plan
reflects reduced expectation from Eagle Lake source
anticipates fully metered systems
to year end, shortfall of $78K, result of less water from Eagle Lake [dry weather]
Sop: so Eagle Lake didn't provide the water we expected
but why increase 2%
D/Fin: increase of 2% is entirely due to revised estimates of Eagle Lake
Sop: so are we at the mercy of the weather all the time?
D/Fin: Mr Fung can respond but some studies underway wrt capacity and ability to get through dry
MMgr: when we presented study to Ccl, was consumption and how much drawing on GVRD
this is just more conservative estimate after seeing another set of numbers...
RF: haven't quite achieved the targets we expected
long term weather change or a blip??
just decided to base our projections on our most recent experience
we are embarking on a study
climate change; hope further refinement in our answer

RECOMMENDED:  THAT water rates for the year 2005 be increased by seven [per cent] (7%) to all categories of users, applied with rounding to the net of discount amount.
RECOMMENDED: be introduced and read a first and second time.
RECOMMENDED: THAT public comment on the proposed rates be received up to Nov 19, 2004.


5.10    Water Meter Loan Authorization Bylaw No. 4407, 2004
Designated Presenter:  Director of Finance
RL, Dir/Fin: agreement with Neptune Technologies for $6,850K
recovered by an annual charge from homeowners; they'll benefit hopefully [sic] from lower water bills
G-J: a really big step
at the GVRD water cmte mtg last week
research showing consumers interested in water [conservation]
water will be like your heating bill -- up to you how much you use
in Seattle and Sydney they have second and third tier pricing (twice and five times as much in summer)
only way we can control use
important in shifting attitudes
VD: note the cost of borrowing money is 6.75 and note we have a letter from the board I sit on (Ontario) and borrowing at 4% so feel staff is being conservative
assumption borrowing rates going up next six or seven months
this is clearly a good idea for WV
cost of GVRD water will be 70-80'% higher than it is now in 2007
with Eagle Lake dam/water and metering, will be less money --
JF: can't recall how many years anticipated before paid off metering?
D/Fin: 15 years
JF: a bargain
VD: MFA repays debts faster, it's not inconceivable inform us two to three years ahead
D/Fin: ev single issue we've had outstanding has been repaid two or three years earlier
MMgr: again we're being very conservative
RD: we'll be spending $16m to improve the Eagle Lake facilities and dam, where's money going to come from?
D/Fin: that is included in the $16m
RD: so not additional $75 a year (per taxpayer)
D/Fin: already incorporates
Sop: so we're spending $6,850K to put in the meters and it's like a control method for us so we can identify the amount of usage in this cmnty
they will pay this b/c GVRD costs will double, triple, whatever
where will recognition of conservation come in?
if true savings -- this is a monitoring basis -- not nec savings
there's a toilet and it'll increase water consumption in your home
D/Fin: the high rate, water -- you're paying for it [then they'll save]
we've had a lot go to metering not happy with flat rate
you conserve, you pay less
Sop: PowerSmart, what's to educate? just bill itself?
D/Fin: starts this year
RF: when we introduced the water strategy it included a whole range of initiatives
shower heads, etc
biz case wd have to prove itself out individually
taking advantage of grants -- we do have a toilet rebate program
the subscription rate has not been as great as we had hoped
this gives more profile, looking a costs and benefits, will presenting to Ccl
Sop: someone called me having renovations and asked what was going on about the meter
RF: there'll be an extensive information program: letters, mtgs, doorknockers, suggestions on how to reduce your water bill
integral to success
VD: recall debate, huge amount of water being used by a small number of users
RF: something like the top sixth of our users consume about 30% of the water
VD: we all have gas and electricity meters so we all understand what they do
buy at cheaper rate, if excessive, at a higher rate with a penalty
Sop: we've always prided ourselves with pay-as-you-go.
haven't done this for a long time
any alternative?
D/Fin: er--
Sop: proud of paying
look at bill
going to take care of itself over time
but GVRD
D/Fin: we'll be able to answer that question in 2007
Sop: point of order
we're in discussion
Mayor: answer is we'll know in 2007?
maybe not all of the $75 but cheaper by meter than flat rate
RF: see reduction; if they did not modify their use when metering, they'd incur a higher water bill
up to 40 - 50% will see about the same.

RECOMMENDED: be introduced and read a first, second and third time.

5.11    Alternative Approval Process re Park Disposal Bylaw No. 4363, 2004
Designated Presenter:  Director of Planning, Lands & Permits
end of Falcon; use by nbr; inaccessible to public; park was a nature preserve
adjacent owner was using the land from the time of subdivision so asked M sell it to him; assessed at $22K plus costs; went out for approval in electoral process
3216 wd be required to disapprove; received replies from five
Enquiries if near Butterfly Park but it isn't, it's cliff face
funds go into a park acquisition fund
THAT the report dated October 29, 2004 from the Municipal Clerk regarding Certification of Elector Approval re Alternative Approval Process - Park Disposal Bylaw No. 4363, 2004 be received.
This bylaw received third reading at the September 13, 2004 Council Meeting.
RECOMMENDED: THAT "Park Disposal Bylaw No. 4363, 2004" be adopted. [DONE]

6.         BYLAWS
6.1       Fire Protection and Emergency Response Amendment Bylaw No. 4401, 2004
Designated Presenter:  Fire Chief
This bylaw received third reading at the November 01, 2004 Council Meeting.
RECOMMENDED: be adopted.

VD: you, Mr Mayor, and I went to service at Mulgrave with Japanese students
moving experience
next day at Library
went to Kay Meek for African Children's and was amazed at the performance
money they were raising  -- educating 3000 in Uganda and 3000 in Sudan; now for AIDS victims in Africa, now about 11m
went to Park Visioning at Srs' Ctr and disappointed [about?] Gleneagles Adventure
Sop: 142 parks
JC: 141 now!
VD: changing daily
obviously Amb Park falls into Parks Dept; cmnty centre another cmte; and adv another group
what are we going to do with these parks
some looked after by residents
better use of staff's and public's time asking what we shd do
amalgamate them? dispose of them in some manner?
JF: attended sev events
Wed morning WVCC, sweet breakfast, speaker from Purdy's
her father bought the company in 1963
to Seattle and found local chocolate companies do well locally
Sees in Seattle, Laura Secord in east
but she has been able to break into east, two or three companies elsewhere
room in Srs' Centre between 5 and 6:30 debating Parks and Open Spaces
several commenting on how hardworking staff were
attended NSh Assn for the Mentally Handicapped third annual breakfast; very touching
what it's like, a parent having three autistic children
respite from care
one having a child now an adult living independently
RD: enjoyed M&A exhibit Tuesday, new exhibit of BPP -- going back to 1930s, down to present day
well attended; never seen so many in M&A, 200!
then from HAC to there to Open House; dealt not just with parks but with env, culture, etc
found it quite rewarding
Remembrance Day ceremonies, nice/rare to be in sunshine
never seen such a large crowd
G-J: you, Mr Mayor, and I went to Bahai Awards; congratulations also to Mr Newman
and the winner was Mr Harold Lincke who donated the Friendship Globe [at Dundarave Pier]
they spoke about the power of the individual
wd recommend anyone to go to that event -- very mixed crowd
if you live in Brit Props you shd go to that exhibit [now at Museum] -- shd have one for every nbrhd, that's how you get people out
and tomorrow night, Tuesday
JC: [Remembrance Day] growing event 2 - 3000 people
Legion put it on, but maybe something we cd do?
it's a cmnty event
Help them with the sound system
MMgr: will see
RD: that museum exhibit: it's part of our WV history
but also it's based on documents and archives collected
fostering history of nbrhds; helping us to regain our history
particularly good exhibit what we've collected over the years

8.         OTHER ITEMS

8.1       Correspondence [full list in previous WVM issue]
8.1.18             O. Syberg and J. Robitaille, October 24, 2004, regarding trimming of trees by 282 Stevens Drive
                        Referred to Director of Parks and Community Services for consideration and response in consultation with the Director of Administrative Services.
8.1.21             Undated 19-name petition re closure of brake check on Upper Levels Hwy near Caulfeild exit
                        Referred to Director of Engineering and Transportation  for consideration and response.
8.2       Lower Mainland Treaty Advisory Committee (LMTAC) Concerns and Pace of Negotiations - Tsawwassen Treaty Table Correspondence from R. Drew, Mayor, Chair, Lower Mainland Treaty Advisory Committee dated November 05, 2004 regarding LMTAC Concerns and Pace of Negotiations - Tsawwassen Treaty Table.
1.                  The District of West Vancouver support the Lower Mainland Treaty Advisory Committee's concerns regarding both Additions to Treaty Settlement Lands (TSL) and Fiscal Compensation for lands that will be transferred from local government jurisdiction to First Nations as a consequence of treaty negotiations; and
2.                  A letter conveying the District's support be sent to Minister Plant.

Sop: re 8.1.21
resident said [staff says] it appears to meet with bylaw but a consultant said it did not
D/Eng: not on our prop, on prov
Sop:that corner v bad; much consultation about where put and how quickly it happened?
MMgr: before Mr Barth's time; parking problem; you'll recall BC Ferries made changes and one was removal of brake check, and a condition we asked was to relocate it
consider safety so this is one of the few locations possible (has to be flat, etc)
BC Ferries wasn't excited about having to pay, and Hwys has washed their hands of it -- if noise problem not needed so not going to pay
We feel we need a brake check from safety point of view; we may have to....
Sop: is Mr Barth going to go address
Garth: yes each one
MMgr: alternative to remove it, unlikely to find another place


JF: query re letter re LMTAC and motion

JC: letter 8.1.18: nbrs talking about nbrs at 282 cutting trees and dumping refuse on M property
are you familiar with that situation up there?
KP, Dir/Parks: first record in 1994 and it has been going on
will look into this; we're attending to it
JC re 8.1.26 discussing parking situation around old/new IGA store
spoke to site superintendent and he was told he was not a babysitter
workers were to park in church's lot but they're parking in street (where residents park)
MMgr: we're looking into that and what the arrangement is.


Mayor: 5.3?
JF: made motion re Tsawwassen above
VD: I'd like to add to Min Plant and to all other municipalities
want to make sure
Mayor: did 5.3 cover other municipalities?
SSch: read out that motion
VD: don't think that's quite what
to me, the more the merrier
Mayor: you're suggesting a third?
VD: Min Plant, Ms, and copy of letter to Ms to Plant as well

10pm so motion to extend

Helene Swann: wrt location of two signs on Mathers Ave wrt no parking on Mathers Court
Mayor: address
HS: on Chesterfield in NV
to a garage sale
first time in my life got a parking ticket
sign on corner
Police said 32 tickets that day
parallel rather than angled to driver
WV Sr School craft sale this Sat, ask signs be angled
can that be done so don't have to go to court
RD: did you win in court?
HS: pleased to say charges dropped b/c bylaw officer didn't turn up
Hugh Hamilton: Prez of WV Streamkeeper Society
we want draw your attention to all creeks in WV, in particular ephemeral creeks
encourage bylaw be enforced, specifically in devt in steep parts, Upper Lands
not mentioned in new OCP
damage, diversion, or removal can result in floods, erosion
provide nutrients, refuge, consistency of flow
seek Ccl's support for protecting our creeks, esp ephemeral creeks -- culverting and diversion
this class of creek shd be included in bylaw
seasonal to health of main creeks
shd be mapped and protected
will you confirm steps will be taken right away esp in the areas I've mentioned and now that the rainy season is here?

{you will note no answer was given to this}

Sop: prior to going away, I went up to area being developed behind Collingwood School
walked with Mr Thorneloe and McLean, pools
this is a starting process
really well done
filled in, same channel, very effective what they did
congratulate you on coming forth; will face that as we go along

VD: Cclr Sop saw some very good work done by BPP, however if you go further along where Ccl gave permission for some tree thinning (where the school was going to be and a playground), lengthy discussion
Ccl gave approval to remove some, thin some, create playfield and below parklike area
if one goes up there, there's only four trees left
it's a complete clear cut
huge trees been cut down
asked mbr of staff about this, why, and answer given was to clear to Ccl viewline [approved] wd hv to top trees
since we don't recommend topping trees, told developer to remove them
it's exactly opposite to what Ccl Sop saw
go up there now and it's an absolute, the ultimate green disaster area; trees all lying down, [soil] all churned up, in pouring rain water running wherever
I'm just curious as to why Ccl wasn't told why every tree was going to be removed with only four left
MMgr: I've asked for a staff report with illustrations  --
VD: I'm very concerned that Ccl didn't understand in the report given to us the destruction of the trees prior to [our] approving it
don't think any of us intended a clearcut
[thought] some limbing, some windowing
instead, got an absolute clearcut
got phone calls saying why did you allow this
drove up there and was horrified
apparently done with staff's approval
RD: where?
VD: above 1000ft road/connector
forest -- gave approval for a view corridor over or through those trees
RD: I remember that
We understood at the time they wd clear the school site but not the area below
are the trees intact there?
VD: no
MMgr: involved elevation measurement
when applied, staff thought small trees wd be left
but if you took out the trees above elevation proposed
left with very very few in understory; forester's opinion those wd not stand alone
authorized those be removed with expectation signif replanting and staff is now in negotiation

{thought bubble:  why on earth wasn't a study done BEFORE the clearcutting?
More importantly, as Cclr Durman says, Ccl shd have been made aware of the results.  This looks like no or misleading information at best.
On top of that: they're negotiating AFTER it's been clearcut?
AND the forester is on holiday?

the proposal of those up to 75ft wd remain
perhaps where erred, when devpr went in, and cleared that site, removed more than we expected
maybe good intention, hasn't worked out

G-J: watercourse bylaw and a pollution bylaw
MMgr: watercourse
G-J: been a while, wonder when
MMgr: believe referred to PEAC, will check when
G-J: how are riparian regulations going with prov
and MOU signed with them
Streamkeepers is making a good point
streams an organizing principle around wch
MMgr: Mr Jenkins is on holiday this week; will get back
VD: concerned about tree-cutting
we didn't know what we were agreeing to
in future we will have to be far more careful
more staff checking that what we have agreed to actually takes place
and not rely on devpr; devpr can do too much
shd have penalties
do more; work shd stop
whole thing shd come back, whole decision to see if we'd go on
if you go up there, no ephemeral streams -- just a mud puddle
worry, must be much tighter with our agreements
make sure every t crossed and i dotted so get what we wanted
make sure -- what we're told -- exactly the outcome
MMgr: as part of the devt review process identified not adequate monitoring resources
have just added a staff mbr expressly on that, looking what happening in field; shd assist us
good point and will be reporting to Ccl
CR, Yours Truly:  I want to thank Ccl VD for his concern
absolutely agree research shd be done; it was one of questions I asked when it came up, specifically
I asked if anything significant, if mapped/surveyed
or if someone decided nothing signif or oldgrowth
Mayor: hindsight --
CR: No.  At the time, l asked
old growth; if it wd be looked at first

{at mtg when approval was discussed I asked that an inventory be done to identify significant or oldgrowth with the idea that they would then be protected or preserved.  I thought there were assurances that that wd be done but I haven't checked into that -- may watch the tape of that meeting to find out.  Note no reference is made to that by Ccl or staff at this mtg.}

Mayor: had been logged
no oldgrowth
CR: [but that means no thorough study of area done prior as I'd hoped]
btw, didn't hear an answer to Mr Hamilton's question
Mayor: tonight?
MMgr: understand report --
SJN: all envtal mapping [being done]
will be requirement so you will have that before you
CR hoped ephemeral creeks wd be mapped and protected, then asked:
earlier tonight a bylaw had first, second, and third readings
then ref to cmnty charter
does Cmnty Ch mean can have three readings [and then be advertised]?
RBeauchamp: can have three readings
then advertise it
can then easily change it

CR: thx -- change from before [when amendments only at second reading]
wrt Wetmore going to DAC
had heard about this
what's going to DAC b/c if Ccl hasn't decided what was going to be there
if Ccl hasn't decided what there, how can comment on design?
SJN: maybe greater setbacks, from Marine Drive
DAC has requested if going out for design proposal, go to them before going out
certain design parameters
they may choose not to comment
CR design parameters, thx for clarification
wrt to [uplift for rezoning; increase in value/appraisal change]
Mayor: In H Bay
CR: know Cclr G-J and others have asked about the cmnty benefit policy
not out yet
will you do what's done in Van, [ie calculate] "uplift"?
if only $10K can't ask much
if $400, then can ask for more
the Planner has answered about some of the benefits
wd be helpful
estimate of value of prop was and new value
then come up with something fair
MMgr: it's a bit more complicated than that
may be devt costs
will be looking at cmnty benefit, will be bringing something in next couple of weeks
more complex than cost
other benefits
CR: of course; not just referring to that, people will have many ideas of benefits
am sure other
understand it's complex, Vancouver does it all the time
perhaps new, early days, perhaps processes not in place
Mayor: doesn't happen in Vancouver and don't imagine it'll happen here
just apply a percentage to value of property as benefit --
each negotiated on merit
CR: No -- sorry if I didn't make myself clear; that's not what I said
in Vancouver they get the assessment of the prop now and in future
THEN it's up to the public to decide
at least if we have ballpark figures to know what increase is then we can decide
eg if it's only $10K ridiculous to ask
but if $400K --
SJN: we will be reporting to Ccl; we have done a survey of Ms in the mainland
very few have a policy for cmnty benefits
the City of Vancouver does not have a policy, only have a practice

{guess it's important to make a distinction.......
anyway it's an acknowledgement that it occurs!}

only applies downtown, not in city, so wdn't apply in an area like H Bay
but am sure all try to achieve benefit
but the uplift technique only applies to downtown where it has high density and also allows for transfer of density for heritage, ...
we'll try to achieve best cmnty benefits under circumstances
CR decided not to debate at this point however quite obviously 
a) H Bay has a commercial area and the site was a gas station, and
b) if it's done, that's the essential point regardless of whether commercial or residential.  An applicant can increase the value of his property greatly by a change in zoning or density.  It is only fair that, since it's the cmnty's prerogative whether or not to grant this, that the cmnty receive some benefit in return -- win-win, if you will.  So I simply said:
great, thx
Bruce McArthur: a couple of Qs
figure of 10% of electors required for disapproval
Mayor: for park?
BMcA: no for a bylaw
SJN: 3,216
BMcA: how determined?  change ev week?
SJN:  time of petition; move out, die; page-long formula
BMcA: thank you; curious how done
earlier you mentioned park acquisition fund, substantial?
how much is in it?  just the $22,600 now?
SJN: not sure
Mayor: Dir of Finance?  Parks?
... we'll get back to you on that.

Adjournment at 10:28

===  ABBREVIATED AGENDA for Nov 22nd CCL MTG  ===

A Supplemental Information Package/Agenda May be Issued on Friday
3.         ADOPTION OF MINUTES - No items presented.

4.         DELEGATIONS
4.1       D. Zeitler, regarding Ambleside Business Area
4.2       R. Kinar, regarding Council Support for Sport Helmet Safety Standards

5.         REPORTS
5.1       2005 Budget Presentation (File:  0860-01)
Designated Presenter:  Director of Finance
5.2       2003 Drinking Water Quality Annual Report (File:  1815-09)
Designated Presenter:  Director of Engineering and Transportation
THAT the report dated November 02, 2004 from the Manager, Utilities regarding the 2003 Drinking Water Quality Annual Report be received for information.
5.3       Water Conservation Strategy - Mandatory Water Meter Regulations (Waterworks Regulation Bylaw No. 3859, 1994, Amendment Bylaw No. 4398, 2004) Designated Presenter:  Director of Engineering and Transportation
THAT "Waterworks Regulation Bylaw No. 3859, 1994, Amendment Bylaw 4398, 2004" be introduced and read a first, second and third time.

6.         BYLAWS
6.1       Water Meter Loan Authorization Bylaw No. 4407, 2004 Designated Presenter:  Director of Finance
This bylaw received third reading at the November 15, 2004 Council Meeting.
RECOMMENDED:  THAT "Water Meter Loan Authorization Bylaw No. 4407, 2004" be adopted.


8.         OTHER ITEMS

8.1       Correspondence

=== No Action Required (receipt only)  ===
8.1.1         Committee and Board Meeting Minutes
(a)             Arts and Culture Strategy Select Committee, September 27, 2004
(b)             Arts and Culture Strategy Select Committee, October 12, 2004
(c)             Sports and Recreation Facilities Planning Select Cmte of Council, October 13, 2004
8.1.2         L. G. Leonard, November 09, 2004, regarding closure of Shaw Studios
8.1.3         D. Marshall, Executive Director, Fraser Basin Council, regarding sponsoring a sustainability champion to the 2004 State of the Fraser Basin Conference

===  Action Required  ===
8.1.4         J. F. Philip, November 03, 2004, regarding bears being a problem in Altamont                   Referred to Director of Parks and Community Services for consideration and response.
8.1.5         E. Rapaport, November 07, 2004, regarding increased sightings of black bears in the Burhill Road area
                  Referred to Director of Parks and Community Services for consideration and response.
{maybe they mean Burkhill?}



===  QUOTATION  ===

Autumn is a second spring when every leaf is a flower.
                                -- Albert Camus, writer and philosopher (1913-1960)