=  MAIN ITEMS Ccl Mtg Agenda Apr 23: 2007 Budget, Budget, Budget!

If you want zero, then write to mayorandcouncil@westvancouver.ca and suggest where to cut budget by $1.4M or raise that amount (or a combination of the two).  Otherwise, adoption May 7.

General comments on the budget can be emailed to: budget@westvancouver.ca (and they go to staff).

=  'Personals'; Vive le Canada (Two Solitudes; Cdns in Afghanistan); THEATREWATCH Quebec (Outremont/Tremblay); Calendar to May 5th (Streamkeepers has Adopt-a-Fish Apr 28); UPDATES (Billboards; Streams/Capilano Golf Course); INFObits (Budget Remarks: general, Marley, Reynolds); Ccl Mtg Apr 16th NOTES (BUDGET; Collingwood's Morven Campus violates zoning conditions; heritage house lost by neglect and lack of information?; Open vs Closed mtgs); Apr 23rd Ccl AGENDA; Maiku (words/language); Quotations

=83

=A7  Happy Birthday to the Queen, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, who turned 81 on April 21.

=A7  Happy Birthday to Fred Titcomb on turning 95.

=A7  Happy Birthday to Cclr Smith on turning XX :-) April 16.

=A7  On April 23, 1616, William Shakespeare died at his home in Stratford-upon-Avon. The parish register of his local church showed that he was baptized on April 26, 1564, so his birthday is also traditionally celebrated on April 23rd.

=83  RIP to Reg Meek

Often in attendance at WV Streamkeeper events/mtgs.  What a fascinating life he led including paddling the length of the Amazon in a dugout canoe, and what a contributor to WV.

> Snapshot of Quebec: see Theatrewatch below.

>  2007-04-24 -- Margaret Wente in Globe and Mail:

Both Vietnam and Iraq turned into political losers for the U.S. because there were no good answers to those questions. Afghanistan, I think, will prove to be the same. The social-worker explanation (we're there to nation-build) is the one that Canadians find most resonant. But it will be increasingly hard to defend as evidence mounts that the goal is unattainable. Another problem is that when it comes to what we think of as human rights, many of the so-called good guys we are fighting for are not so very different from the bad guys we are fighting against. They tortured people long before we got there, and they will probably torture people long after we are gone. The question is not whether we can help them build a fair and just society. The question is whether they want one. Meantime, our other allies - the ones in NATO - have no taste for this fight. Without them, our forces are too small to make a difference. As time wears on, we will feel as if all the blood and treasure we have spent is like so much water poured into the desert (G&M A21).

>  A BIT OF PERSPECTIVE -- always remember how lucky we are in Canada:

so sad 32 killed (33 dead) recently in Virginia; yet a day or two later 183/223 killed in Baghdad/Iraq (733 as of 18th for month of April).  In fact 1889 were killed in Mar, 1531 in Feb -- Keep in mind 100s of thousands have been killed since the invasion four years ago, and in a country with a smaller population than Canada.  How wd we handle that along with lack of electricity and water, and more than 2M refugees; no wonder 50,000 leave per month, virtually all who can afford to.....

"The Impromptu of Outremont" by Michel Tremblay is on at the Jericho Arts Ctr; takes place in 1981 and is thought-provoking on many levels wrt the political life/status/attitudes of Quebec and Canada..... ONLINE RESERVATIONS or 604 224 8007, ext. 2; www.unitedplayers.com

===  CALENDAR to May 5th  ===  [all at M Hall unless otherwise indicated]

*  (new) Monday 23rd: Cmnty Engagement Cmte mtg at M Hall, 10am

*  Tues Apr 24th at 4:30pm Fin&Aud Cmte mtg CANCELLED

*  Wed 6pm - Apr 25th on Shaw (Ch 4): introduction to WV Museum exhibit highlighting both contemporary and historical objects on display.  For more details and show times, visit www.westvanmuseum.blogspot.com

*  Thurs 19th's Design Review Cmte mtg was CANCELLED; so is the one for the 26th

*  (time change) Thursday 26th: Police Bd at Ch/Commerce bdrm will be earlier, at 5:30pm (but DWV Calendar says 5pm ~  UPDATE: DWV Calendar fixed/changed to 5:30 when rechecked Apr 25)

+++  FERRY BUILDING GALLERY +++  "Reflections Vancouver" to Apr 17 to 29

Capilano College IDEA Program; Original paintings and 2008 Calendar launch.

  >  Carnival & Amusement Rides at Gleneagles Cmnty Ctr (from DWV website so hope not dupe)

  >  BEAR FESTIVAL -- visit www.bearmatters.com -- April 25 and April 29. (See dates below)

*  THE GALLERY AT THE LIBRARY PRESENTS:  BEAUTIFUL BRITISH COLUMBIA -- April 1 - 30.

~ 3:30pm ~ Design Review CANCELLED

and

This exciting school fashion show features clothing made and modeled by West Vancouver Secondary School students. There will be a broad range of clothing, from Grade 8 boxer shorts to amazing collections created by our senior Textiles Students.  Call (604) 981-1100 for more information.

=  Friday, April 27 --  7pm

Bear Talk is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to hear two famed bear researchers and authors Ben Kilham and Charlie Russell on the same night.   Both =93bear men=94 will reveal extraordinary first person accounts of bear behaviour. This wild event should not be missed! Come celebrate our bears and bring the whole family for this eco-educational event.

Benjamin Kilham has enchanted the world with his stories of mothering twenty-six black bear cubs over the last 20 years, and wrote the book Among the Bears. National Geographic called him "Mother Bear Man." He was featured in a 2005 documentary for Discovery Channel as Papa Bear.

Ben has been also featured in two National Geographic TV specials, NBC Dateline, CBS Coast to Coast, People, New York Times, Field and Stream The Boston Globe, and appeared on the Today Show, and Late Show with David Letterman.

Charlie Russell has spent the best part of 45 years studying bears in their natural habitat, and near people. In 1992/93 Russell spent two years living on Princess Royal Island working on a film about the Spirit Bear.

In the past 11 years Russell rescued and released 10 grizzly zoo cubs in Kamchatka, Russia. He has penned several books about these experiences, including the Canadian best selling book, Grizzly Heart: Living Without Fear Among the Brown Bears of Kamchatka. The BBC documentary Bear Man of Kamchatka will air around the world in late 2007.

Please call Kay Meek Centre=92s Box Office for information:  604-913-3634

==  Fri/Sat, Apr 27/28 at SFU HARBOURSIDE

~ 6 - 9pm ~ Ambleside Youth Centre OPEN HOUSE (at the AYC, of course!)

What does the Good Life cost-and can you put down a refundable deposit? Richard Lipsey explores the economics of happiness. Guest-Richard Lipsey, Professor Emeritus, Department of Economics, Simon Fraser University [free lecture at SFU Harbourside]

== Fri, May 4 (to 12) -- BOOKTopia at WV Library and Kay Meek Ctr

~ 9 - 11am ~ Seniors' Breakfast at Seniors' Activity Ctr (SAC)

~ 10am - noon ~ BC Special Olympics Walkathon (Seawalk - Ambleside/Dundarave)

>>>  STOP BILLBOARD NEWS from David Marley:

Subject: CROA "Stop the Billboards" campaign

Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:07:57 -0700

The juvenile salmon stocking program (coho), which began in the spring of 2001 is being resumed.  During work done last year, no species were hurt, and everything put back afterwards - so, we're looking forward to resuming the Capilano Golf Course annual coho stocking program this spring. Often, the WV Streamkeepers and the Capilano Golf Course has involved local schools in fry releases.

=83  Many have complained about delay and piecemeal info (there were even corrections to figures at Apr 23 ccl mtg when the budget passed three readings!) making comprehensive/meaningful budget deliberations next to impossible.  UPDATE: The good news, if we're optimistic, is that the Cclr MS of F&A Cmte says Budget 2008 prep will start next month -- May 2007!  The CAO says his aim is for Budget 2008 to be passed in January 2008.

Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 21:30:37 -0800

Mar 29   --  [answers]  {my subsequent remarks writing this}

May I echo Cclr Sop's comment that we hope there are more mtgs especially since the Five-Year Plan was only released today.

Unfortunately I haven't had time to go through all the material available here tonight, so please let me know where to find it or if/when it will be supplied.

Someone earlier asked about how much was spent on consultants.  It wd be useful to know how much a department pays on staff and how much on consultants or outsourcing.  Obviously there are some projects that require special expertise and need it temporarily so consultants are hired.  That is separate from outsourcing.

[CAO said he'd look into providing this information.]

Last year I was not given the information requested wrt IT and was told b/c not sure of my questions.  I have some questions and if clarification is needed, please let me know asap.

For the IT budget, please let us know how much for personnel and how much for equipment, how much for Technical Support, as well as the functions.

There used to be an IT cmte and the District might benefit from this expertise.  [DRoach pointed out the increases in this part of the budget; 8.5% this year alone.]

[Mayor took notes.]

It has come to my attention a couple of years ago an offer was made wrt donation or services and it was refused.  Ccl was never made aware of this offer apparently.  Please let us know what the process is {and guarantee they go to Ccl}.

[Mayor said that that's one of the draft policies we're discussing during this budget time (Contribution Policy).]

Will DCCs be reviewed (to recoup more)?

[yes, upward]

There's a formula for uplift, referring to the land value.  Can that be changed?

[for discussion]

I thought there might be some legal/provincial restrictions.

[will review]

= wrt the Five-Year Plan, you referred earlier to some adjustments such as in answer to the Gleneagles/Great Hall question; these will be for public review and Ccl approval, and when will we be able to discuss them {have input}?  Future meetings?

[even if not another townhall mtg, the public can comment on the budget at every ccl mtg.]

Since the T4s had to be sent the end of Feb 28, staff salaries are known, so they cd be made public.

[The Police have objected and we're looking at this with the province.]

My point is that, rather than delaying releasing information b/c of needing to have it all available, why not release it in draft form, or as much as you can omitting just the parts you're waiting for?

[it will go to X?X and Fin/Audit Cmte and come to Ccl, hope by end of April.]

Thank you very much {or words to that effect}.

===  CMTE of WHOLE MTG NOTES Apr 16th&n= bsp; === [names/text best efforts]

Mayor: welcome to our ccl mtg; sorry we're starting a few minutes late tonight.  I'd like to call the mtg to order.

After approval of agenda:

then:

Mayor: awarded $2M for plan and cycling; spirit of partnership

Emil Barth, Dir/Engg: excited, $2M max any M received

captured the imagination of ev on the NSh

support and excitement that got us the grant; have money in the budget to start, draw from ea year

conceptual plan, general alignment will be working with the cmnty, if concerns

looking at raising private funds; a beginning

Mayor: thank you for your leadership as well

looking at OCP, one resident sang a song about......

1.  APPROVAL OF AGENDA

RECOMMENDED FOR RECEIPT: Information relating to the Draft 2007 Budget is set out below:

(a)               2007 Proposed Budget - Towards a Sustainable Future (received at Committee of the Whole Meeting on March 12, 2007 and made available at Town Hall Meeting on March 29, 2007);

(b)               2007 Budget Presentation to Council (received at Committee of the Whole Meeting on March 12, 2007 and made available at Town Hall Meeting on March 29, 2007);

(c)                Draft [Five-]Year Capital Plan 2007-2011 (received at Council Meeting on April 02, 2007 and made available at Town Hall Meeting on March 29, 2007);

(d)               Draft Public Amenity Contribution Policy (received at Committee of the Whole Meeting on March 12, 2007 and made available at Town Hall Meeting on March 29, 2007);

(e)               Draft Partnership and Sponsorship Policy (received at Committee of the Whole Meeting on March 12, 2007 and made available at Town Hall Meeting on March 29, 2007); and

(f)                  Unadopted Minutes of the Town Hall Meeting re Draft 2007 Budget held on March 29, 2007 (for information only - scheduled for adoption at Council Meeting on April 23, 2007).

DRoach: thank you for releasing this info

will take some time to go through it

back page, reserve accounts, Five-Yr Cap released at 2nd of Apr

looking at Endowmt Fund, standing at $29M end of last year

looking at last page

funding sources, ....look across to rt hand column $25.4M being withdrawn occurs 2007/8

cd we have some detailed explanation how we're going to do that

leave with $4M balance at end of 2008, expecting a windfall?

DR: infrastructure fund, closing balances last yr $254K, looking at five-yr Cap, funding sources, notice that 007, with $7.4M, 08 withdrawing $9.2M; we don't hv the 5-yr op plan, only have 2007 budget so we can't tell what the transfer's going to be

wd have to be $1 to 1.5M more than last year's plan indicates

so if we cd hv an explanation of those two points.

CAO: wrt Endowmt, some assumptions built into there around land sales, we can provide Ccl with more information on the infrastructure for 2008, keeping in mind focusing for this year, ie 2007

will be preparing five-yr operating for next wk

depending on discussion tonight

there is an opp for residents to comment on the budget

we're looking for direction so we cd come back with 1st and 2nd readings

opp tonight for Ccl to have an open discussion

bylaws like to bring fwd for consideration and debate

Mayor: reports for receipt so discuss

budget receive midMarch

MS: for what

Mayor: remarks

MS: think we're following a process we support

in the past didn't support one week go next wk and do something diff

leads to rec ctr budgets leaping from $22M to $39M

looking at best practices for budgeting, Task Force, accepted by ev

Finance & Audit Cmte [F&A] implementing

this Ccl's only been in office a yr and a half, have a yr and a half

hoped to hold increase to no more than rate of inflation, wch I wd support

reality is we have to look at other sources of rev, look at way subsidizing parks and rec programs and culture programs

haven't had biz plans; been no public debate about millions of dollars we spend; that has to occur and that takes time

Fire and Police costs increase well above rate of inflation

going to take time for us to get to a place we want to get to

wd be nice as others say, going to have a zero % tax increase but I don't think that's realistic

looking at three depts: this year Police, Fire, Parks and Rec

that's where we want to go, and it's going to take a bit of time to get there

this yr don't see how we can get there, zero increase

question of choices; staff came in with a budget in March for a 3.5% tax increase

2.5% for sustaining services, .45% for approved expenditures for Police and Fire, and another .5% for add'l service challenges

wd hv bn about another 3% tax increase, staff whittled it down to about half a per cent

choices are we cd take 2.95%, for services, we've already approved Pol/Fire expenditures, E-Comm and such

cd take 3.5% or 6% and fund all these service challenges, or zero % tax increase

not sure at this stage whether I can say with the wisdom of Solomon what the numbers shd be

our cmte is mtg tomorrow tonight, make recommendations at that time

not realistic zero nor 6% -- somewhere in the middle is where we'll probably settle out

VV: a lot of comments but my main point

connecting Fiscal Sustainability Task Force [FSTF, sometimes FTF] work with this

one thing I was looking.....

talk about revenue side, sustainable

we don't do that at all; we don't have a procedure/policy/discussion at all to look at taxpayers' ability to pay

look at rev; look at Financial Sust -- rationale has been lost 80s

so we're building without knowing what the base case is

point I made last year

look at demograph signif number of ppl difficulty...

heard a tax deferment prog; understand about 10% do that

if you ask if you can afford something -- not the same as having access to borrowing

see FTF doesn't recommend using the tax deferral sys

we hv ppl who can't afford this and the answer is not to borrow

when we say not sustainable, okay now, but in the future -- ppl will have to sort things out

reading these numbers

we are living beyond our means right now

believe we need to do something about it right now

don't even have a proper method to assess what our taxpayers can pay

two sides: what are we getting and can ppl afford it

I don't think ppl can afford it

don't have a method of monitoring that

Sop: Fin Sust TF cmte, main recoms prudent

understand the process by wch we budget

recommendations have been instituted somewhat in this first go round

desire of this Ccl, make sure we envision some change in the way we do budget and amt of taxation from yr to yr

give merit to that and merit to difficulty Fin Dir has in moving along with the budget

hardpressed as many Ms are

credit there and to staff, want to do best job in cmnty

do think we have to adopt a new process of budgeting

when you have a secure source of funding, don't have to budget

not like us at home

works differently when guaranteed amt of funds

rather than looking a going from yr to yr with an inflationary component

have to adopt a new principle

practical prioritized five yr, 10 yr capital plan

evaluate and reevaluate our priorities

only that can get from here to there......

can't continue to go from a history of last year and inflation

doesn't work any more and hv to change

hv to investigate an annuity pkg and sponsorship

supporting this cmnty, raising funds as a means of raising income

considerations other areas, levies placed on devt in future to meet envtal demands

from infrastructure side, realistic scenario, anything developed above Upper Levels Hwy shd hv own sewage plant thus taking load off taxpayers down here

listed sev areas, states cost to produce ccl package, cost re bylaws go out; managed by time allotment to staff; somewhere along the line, ppl that utilize component of staff have got to realize time means money; look that cost associated

we look at a five yr budget before us; difficult as it is to forecast there are some priorities and a big wish list

back to the current budget I specifically want to ask, of all the millions of dollars, that are in the Operating budget, if we're at 2.95, that's about $1.5, just over $1.4M: cd you not find out of those millions of dollars, $1.4M? so we cd get a zero tax increase?

CAO: if Ccl inclined to reduce some services we cd

Sop: did that before, grass didn't get cut

for instance here 5yr budget infrastructure progs: computer, communications furnishings equipment,  facilities, grounds and parks; four of them total $19M, 4 and a half years; for adornments in areas within city hall to make things better

wd like to ask, of all the millions of dollars in the op budget, if we're at 2.95

truly needed? realistic? priorities? truly need over five years?

has to be a better way as to how doing things in this cmnty

I suggest to Fin Cmte, when we start this coming year's budget

Ccl be part of determination from get go...  with cooperation of Richard Laing

May 8th is our final, we have four weeks; this is our first input although had visuals; we've done a lot of listening

if we don't adopt change, going to find ourselves in same predicament next year

won't go away; I've seen it for nine years

I know there's a commitment, staff want to do great job

just needs to adopt new principle

JF: interesting and difficult year for us to go through not that ev hasn't been difficult

tight year, settle for CPI, see if we can use reserve funds, squeeze from within

when we do our cmnty surveys, even FTF, ppl don't like to have their taxes increased but also don't want decrease in services; want open and running; want in good condition, sewers and water running; so becomes v difficult

when I read through -- don't think there's a silver bullet

wd like to adopt recommendations of Task Force then we have to act on it

devp new capital funding

then bus shelters, we have to vote for them

policies, do we want.....

can't have one without the other

if sponsorship and partnership then you have to have a sign

will, public is there

before we deal with these two draft policies, think they're important

if you want us to act on them, provide us with some thoughts

difficulty increasing rates

prov govts are trying to find ways for chn to participate in rec

huge concern about levels of obesity and lack of fitness, and link to health care costs

tie between health care costs and rec -- increasing cost to participate?

not easy and won't be for staff; comes to terms with it

JC: cd we ask Mr Laing to give us a break down of taxes we collect and where they go from here

RL: $1M, DWV

10% GVTA...  GVRD...  about 50-50 split

JC: so only 50% stay here; what's breakdown between Fire. Police, and Parks?

RL: Parks and Rec, or Parks

JC: Parks and Rec

CAO: Mr L is adding up

RL.....:

RD: here 17%, Parks and Rec 24%

JC: 57% for those three depts

what wd labour component be?

Mayor: av 78%?

JC: process of arbitration is that Toronto leads the way, Police and Fire; Vanc follows Toronto and rest of Ms in Lower Mainland, follow Vancouver to within 1%

really no wriggle room in that percentage

80% -- we really have no say

any mention of densification, even ED; when you look at the .4% inc in growth over 15%; won't take us much above 1..... not come at one time, probably 5 or more yr till built

we don't want industry here

so two key ways of raising funds not, by choice

but someone still has to pay the piper

if zero % I'd suspect the morning after; parking police cars, fire.....

signif staffing changes throughout M; and I don't think ppl want that I don't

think double

if Cclr Smith has said we can't implement all recoms of Task Force; phase them in over next year or two or three then have a case moving forward

delay or offset tax increases

old story about the farmer and his horse

one horse he dearly loved but had a voracious appetite. sick and tired eating him out of house and home on a daily basis, so decided to wean him, cut back ration of oats and ....., down to the point eating no oats at all -- unfortunately the horse died

RD: I sat on Lbr Relations Bd on GVRD

80% of our costs are salaries

coming in at about 3.5% increase

tough negotiator; right now a labour shortage particularly in Lower Mainland

look at GVRD website and look at help-wanted columns

prob in attaining good skilled ppl

negotiated higher in last cpl of years

Police and Fire have the right as of ten yrs ago, to arbitrators; tend to take Toronto

increases higher than CUPE who represent rest of employees

outside forces dictate our budget, about a third of our budget

inflation running around 2%

look at 2.95% pretty tough when under the sal of 3.5%

increases of fuel, insurance, equipment costs

can't go back to zero-based budgeting

if you go back, cut infrastructure, pay cost in end; they're going to wear out

we are not only looking at prudent ways to cut but hv bn active in looking at new sources of income, v important, public amenities policy, cmnty benefits, sponsorship policy, prudent land sales, to bring in more money; we've made modest raises in fees and charges

if we go to 2.95% not clear but it's what I favour, we're well below, at 2.95 second lowest in Lower Mainland, NV over 4%

Mayor:  one of the good news things is you can feel the interest for change -- coming from staff, Task Force interviewed them, they were candid, like to become more involved; public has high regard; want to see translated into good mgmt, more nimble org

can feel in cmnty caution around change; pride in quality of service they receive

Cclr V, you're right, it's about right now, not future; that's why struck the Task Force

report only came out in Nov and already working on it

in May will be working on 2008 budget, have a lot of momentum, hope we don't burn out

we're faced with serious, not in a fiscal crisis, as Roff, the Chair at time said, but looking ahead not just our costs, anticipating regional infrastructure costs, pressures from senior levels of govt, pressures from cmnty

Cclr V you're quite right, taxation not in ability to pay

wd like to see WV lead in tax reform, mtg with Minister of Finance about that and Michael Walker next week

support for that

at same time, trying to take on juggernaut, trying to maintain services

what needs to come out of this is an aggressive

nobody else is going to care, only us making sacrifices

want to keep our eye in bigger picture

while talking to ppl, while widening our base, what team do we need to put together

not about putting names on things, it's working smart, taking advantage of money out there

ppl won't believe of value of we don't get value now

got some posters up in Aquatic Ctr, here's where we can increase fees

haven't heard any feedback positive or negative

transparency is key; radical transparency is the new term; on the cusp

see how far mbrs of Ccl want to push tonight and next Monday

wishing to pull together with cmnty for 2008, can't continue to work with what is an unworkable system

of the recommendations we received end of 2006, got F&A cmte working weekly or biweekly

amalgamation of services across NSh for better delivery

systematic deptal reviews; got our five yr capital plan

higher recovery rates, looking at P3s, Lions Gate sewage treatment serious, Cache Creek serious

important to have some philosophies in place when look at those major questions

really good start; for purposes of next week's debate

looking at 2.95 as a way for staff for bylaws, then we can look at that number

VV: ...interesting legal framework, we're not allowed to run a budget that isn't balanced, the operating budget must by law balance

FCM takes up this point; this required balance has resulted in under-investment in infrastructure; all over Canada under-estimated infrastructure needs; so hasn't been the balance

FSTF, WV's is representative of other Ms

wd say spend less, but Engg needs more

looking at same numbers but diff interpretation

I can say we shdn't even spending what we are rather than increasing

bar chart comparing ----

Fire and Police a bit more, but where we spend way more Parks Rec and Culture

since a lot is subsidization, obviously optional, that's the most logical place to look for savings

we subsidize these rec activities substantially

budget booklet, we see the recovery rate how much $ spent is recovered by user fees, go from 61.1 to 64.   ....

only .7% diff, but amt out of taxpayers' pocket goes up

interesting b/c we cannot the amt of subsidization go up in absolute dollars

have to go toward 70% and 74%

even more interesting, it's actually millions -- $3M; and close to another $1M on culture

look at booklet, capital from revenue $7.x

proceed to back of booklet, add it on; subjects like maintenance and infrastructure, ....$350K for capital expenditures...... and again for the maintenance ...... $700K for the srs' ctr

go to front of book, financial...  a portion ... do my adding in

why don't we have our staff do time sheets so we can apportion their time to activities relates to so we can get accurate numbers

cost of ccl time; cmtes; can't find out, don't keep time sheets

one other example really not living within our means

read "pay as you go", don't borrow, use funds we have

problem, when facility comes to end, suddenly shut, locked up, out....

but no automatic fund...  only one that has it is cemetery; perpetual.... only one;

Gleneagles, police bldg another; need $18M for another -- see fund

says sell some land and then we can borrow $8M

if pay as you go, we'd hv money in that fund now

govt is there in perpetuity, we as indivs, alas, are not, but--

Mayor: that's a good thing

VV: being a trustee in a govt in a perpetual role; too bad when it falls down

Mayor; was there any particular question or questions you want answered?

VV: love to have an answer

are we going to have the time sheets that I really feel are missing that major corporations have?

love to have a Stantec Report on procedures b/c around devt onerous, and cost to that

love to publish the John Collison report on Parks and Rec

love us to have the info for us and for public, so I'm not just saying it so public can see what I derive

CAO: think statement rather than question

certainly we can provide add'l info wrt reports if wish of Ccl

use timecards for outside work force for work orders; don't do for internal staff

the first question I wd ask is what wd you do with info once you had it

actually reduce hours we spend at ccl mtgs? or?

VV: we might, mightn't we, b/c we don't know what it wd cost

about a year ago.... might not add increments for last year

how do we know cut across the board, definitely not

time and money costs

so we can remove the lowest priorities; can't, don't have details

Mayor: one of the discoveries of the TF

we have strained, b/c Ccl always a rate below the rate of inflation

don't think that wd work at this time

from TF and public; Ccl's own capriciousness costs money

politics, cmnty, and demanding cmnty have ....

what we say Monday usu in place Tues

Sop: a lot of valuable info coming in

not on right road to success until prioritizing future

fact remains, strengths out of Task Force and willingness of staff to ...

looking at five-yr cap, been an amt sitting there for some time $850K for renewal of a bldg, didn't take place so still earmarked for that; b/c restaurant gone, revenues going down

excellent opp, solid biz case surrounding golf, all monies in the golf plan

use monies we have, finish off project, ... within M framework

doesn't go in gen funds

know it was successful and can; shd be moved ahead on

same with cemetery

lands there; going to build as we go and self-sustaining

other Ccls will say, good you did it ten years ago

windows from other areas

brings me to amenity contribution; a little disturbed based on necessity to densify this cmnty that scares me a lot

density bonusing, look at seriously what wd take place

all biz areas throughout cmnty

situation bonus density will be part of that system

looking at all devt, certain earmark as far as density is concerned; this  policy will apply to all

don't know we're ready for all density bonusing

maybe Cclr F will get some answers? out of that

sponsorship, guess a lot of merit

negotiations staff or volunteers will negotiate all terms and conditions, a sponsorship contract and approved by service mgr; rejection may be appealed to Ccl

do not accept, any contractual

this ccl, nobody else, no volunteer; an absolute MUST

Mayor: that wd be to reverse what we've done in the past

Harmony Arts,,.........  Library, ...  all corporate sponsorships negotiated in good faith

so really this is not a dramatic shift; need to know wch ones make sense

CAO: wrt sponsorships; anything signif or permanent requires Ccl approval

just an attempt to share

make sure cmnty shares benefit; things Ccl approves

if we have a rezoning, opp there; not an attempt to change

make sure cmnty enjoys

Sop: includes a statement of density and will go right through Amb, xxx, will go right through

wonder if not nec passing at same time as budget

Mayor: good expressing concern....

Cclr S anxious to get in

MS: let Sop finish

Sop: RL, you have on p119, shows gen ... projects

at 31.12 06;  $29M in fund at that time

when we look at that, how do you interpret?

what is threshold today?

RL: believe $20M

Sop: so can't as when we bought 22nd and Marine

don't go over, ...

RL: within

Sop: so we go from $20M upward

plus half a year's worth for 2007

how do we interpret if we're at $9M that's usable where's that?

RL: we can bring that info to Ccl but you have to understand there are transactions going through fund

interest $1M a year, land sales, rental proceeds during hope short period holding Wetmore prop

submit from quick look, short-sighted

want to know where we actually stand and what you want to use, and have all the details up to date and where we are

again short time gain; invested in that prop; gain there; we've utilized over the threshold

has to be satisfied before passing budget to know exactly where we're going

CAO: Endowmt bylaw requires Ccl do one of two things wrt Wetmore

MS:...  shd bring debate to close

want to reaffirm something Cclr Clark said, I think it's important, nobody around this table is in a position IMO to sensibly and logically dictate to staff where to cut if you want to cut services

all we're saying is we want to spend next few months reviewing depts; if decision to make

so we can at least attack the situation intelligently; can't do that now

2.95%

staff gave us an add'l 3% wish list, proper terminology service challenges

find; signif issue to them

if you want to start cutting the budget, got to walk the talk

if zero as Cclr V said, cut existing budget, can't say spend more money on engg

v frustrating sitting here, hearing all these wonderful statements about zero increases and living within our means, without any intelligent, logical, and rational explanation of where you're going to make cuts

Mayor: now to Cclr Clark to make the motion; debate will be next Monday night.

JC: supplementary info be received

RECEIPT CARRIED

CAO: if we cd hv a motion; to prepare a cap plan bylaw unless changes Ccl wd like to see

CARRIED

Mayor: now move to

RECOMMENDED:  THAT notification be given to Collingwood School and residents within 150 metres of the proposal described in the report from the Community Planner dated April 2, 2007, to provide an opportunity to comment prior to further consideration at the Council meeting of Monday, May 28, 2007.

RW: My name is Rodger Wright and I'm the dreaded head of the school

welcome any opp to discuss with our nbrs at Morven

and proposed May 28th date

support openness of this motion

when first came to attention to this admin immediately acknowledged that and immed disclosed our plans to deal with that

historically Collingwood hasn't been the best of nbrs to our friends....

I'd like to begin to rectify that

to speak to the issue to Morven nbrs, compliance re number of students, parking traffic

we do have a solution to that

construction of an autonomous middle school on lands we have at Wentworth and currently there's an application before Ccl to build that and if approved, wd move our entire grades 6, 7, and 8, over 200 students to middle school, date wd be 2010

realize that doesn't speak immediately to concerns of our nbrs around Morven therefore as a sign of good faith, interim measures,

have Chairman of Bd here

for public, we'd undertake to build add'l parking facilities on field effectively take all parking off street

also undertake to work with Dist staff to do anything else to help rationalize dropoff and pickup

already made some progress on afternoon pickup, one-way

happy to work with residents of Morven and District

to expedite

drop off lane in front of school

my letter, we'd like to heal this relationship with our Morven nbrs and construct with them a good nbr covenant

have some mechanism to deal with any concerns the nbrhd hv with us

instead of to continue to duke it out in front of Ccl

understand non compliant; do have a plan in place; involve significant new resources $40 to 50M highend facility field???   ...will solve...

again putting some v serious mitigating factors at our own expense to be less of a headache at Morven

Andy Legouchik (sp?): on Glengarry

Collingwood traffic affects farther than 100m; feel all in vicinity of school shd be notified; x Street, same Deep Dene

excuse no sufficient time, .... by 2010 wd be deeply regrettable

if on May 28, time frame May 28

nbrhd wd be left with vague promises, nothing specific

School wd carry on with biz as usual, unacceptable

nbrhd wants three things, by Sept 2007, we expect no more than 600 students on Morven campus

we are aware this will not bring compliance but shd bring some relief

by 2010, expect full compliance with all regulations

reasonable time frame

considering situation created by Collingwood, period is generous

third: other issues, like future 85 Morven Dr prop belongs to Collingwood

drop off, will address in future ccl mtgs; willing to discuss with school

if Collingwood school serious as Mr Wright said, they need to demonstrate real number {I might have misheard, 'effort' makes more sense},  to comply instead of making empty promises, make do ....... year overdue

introduce mandatory bussing rather than laughable good nbr

area of good nbr relations; personal relations and good,.... nothing to learn from Collingwood School

Har Puth Jam (sp?): touch on some of the issues brought up clarify some things Rodger has articulated

have a situation we're going to try to address

we've committed to address this situation by 2010 by Wentworth campus

in 2010, the compliance issue will fall away

immediate response, commit to add'l parking on site; will take over existing programming

regarding major issue, hv discussed with our traffic consultants, observations during pick up and drop off, observations made in 2004, 2006, and last week

main issue is around parking -- 35 to 40 parked vehicles on street impeding during p/up

solution  to move parking onto school site

for events need parking on street

idea of relocating students sooner than later is not an issue

trailer in Wentworth site -- construction site, no room between now and 2010, at wch time wdn't need temp structures

will be some work done on Morven itself; so temp structures on Morven now, that will have to be removed; there is a plan a theme

group committed to getting Wentworth under way so can get Morven

parking diff, 30 min in morning of dropoff, 10 min of peak time

about 30 to 35 minutes of pickup time XX min peak

will look at grounds available; hope prepared at that time addressed; advise nbrhd what we're doing

instead of having a forum where nbrs come in and address their issues in a v general way, we wd recommend more of a mtg with residents, Collingwood present, traffic consultants, have nbrs articulate what some of the indiv issues are, in detail so we can address

feel for nbrs, been dealing with this for some time

wd reducing to 600 address issue? it may, but biggest is parking

we will rectify this situation by 2007 to 2010

as a parallel project, pushing forward with staff, design mtg last week; public mtg end of this month

end of may

hv a tight schedule; based on a lot of things coming together

starting of construction, like to get that started spring 2008, depends how fast process moves

you guys are all struggling with budgets, Collingwood struggles on a day to day basis

some of the issues around student body, assure occurs by 2010

clearly the long-term solution, Wentworth campus, approved Feb 26

signif consultations with your staff

committed to any short term measures, commit will be done by 2007; express our commitment as a Bd

assure you we are good nbrs; holistic cmnty; can benefit nbrhd

JC: heard there will be parking created -- on green grass there now?

Ans: yes some

JC: gravel

Ans yes

JC: remove from streets

[prev man back up]: currently students register if they drive to school

JC: our bylaw ppl can tow?

Ans: haven't discussed how to control onsite parking

parent teacher mtgs; possible during sch hours; anyone who belongs to schools

if those vehicles on streets, bylaw

Mayor: can't work it all now

two more to speak then May 28 on

Ans: no staff or student on street

Reno Stradiotto: Mr Wright earlier spoke of the unfortunate relationship that exists between nbrs and school

I'd like to begin with when the school went over; [enrolment] 722, some time ago

background and rec

20 years ago I came to this room on sev occasions; subject Collingwood

recommended not to change from RS- to CU-9 and also a DVP, an upgrade to accommodate enrolment of 600

access too restricted; might urge seek a better suited site

approved, Gr 12 added

diff Headmaster, diff, ........

Glenmore cmnty, same old prob; no change to infrastructure, to ameliorate vehicular

school had promised; in fact bad situation made worse

sch has tried to mitigate, implementing a busing prog; but not working ridership at between 20%

parents prefer to drive

Collingwood shd be more hard-nosed

a year ago Wentworth, upgrade...; 280 leaving 440

then solutions...  the following measures; in line with staff recommendations, as beginning; a stronger busing effort; more off-street parking 40-50; creation of greater pickup and drop off; no parking on Glengarry St to allow a dedicated lane

dismissal ... congestion

shd Wentworth go ahead; smaller school; mandated by bylaw

Colin Spicer: ... one of the major things frustrating -- extra 122 and ask how we got to that

what happens if Wentworth isn't ready?

continue to suffer with the extra 120?

122 represents $100s of thousands in fed and prov grants; nothing's been done about that, v frustrating

read from staff reports, as Reno says, have to have some caveats with those recommendations

[reading] traffic and parking issues -- can't be nbrhd and school; broken promises to nbrhd such that not much trust left

has to be some involvement from the M

in January this year those 14 stalls allotted to students, you go today and see how you park 14 cars in that garage, it's full of cmnty fair items, and it's been like that since I've lived at 81 Morven, it's never been used for parking

goes on and on; promises from Mr Wright that no intention of using that land (85) for a parking lot, they come in to staff and try to slide through a variance!

Mayor:  I take your point, try to--

Ans, continues: there is not any trust, if going to be mtgs, we need a mediator

from practical point of view, if ever an emergency at that school no opp getting a firetruck or ambulance at peak period, can't come in either way

two major concerns

keep hearing about 2010; staff report said shd be a corollary to bylaw that Morven shd be reduced when Wentworth opened

what happens if Wentworth not ready in 2010? does problem continue?

word bylaw so regardless in 2010 down to 450?

cmnty happy to accept 450

85 Morven is the other example, sch recommended a park, staff and certainly nbrhd think a park totally inappropr, put back to sgl-fam home; that's what it's zoned for and that's what it shd be

don't hear what they have in mind for that prop

suggest as gathering place at lunchtime, more garbage and more noise

staff shdn't be a park, but what's this going to be, how handled?

been actively working

when back on 28th will have more indepth delegation to represent views of entire Glenmore cmnty

Mayor: anyone else?

Reno Stradiotto: 75 Morven, lived there for 41 years; you've received letters from Douglas Jamieson, not here tonight

Mayor: conspicuous by his absence

Reno: I'll tell him that, he'll probably watch

JF: think a point made wrt area to be notified; valid remark

wonder what staff wd suggest in increasing

may not pick that up in staff report

JF: wrt suggestion re mediator; level of trust

Mayor: imp to understand process

discussing; steps in between then

JF: prior? it is not?

SJN: proposal by Collingwood and counter one by staff

dealing with the enrolment and parking....

those wd take place afterward and there may be other suggestions

JF made motion 200m

Sop: a well-liked school been successful

nbrhd problems in one of them; regardless of what takes place in 2010, .....

from standpoint of a nbr, shd not be obligated to wait 20 min in an afternoon to get into his driveway.....

Mayor: motion on floor is acceptable date May 28

Sop: comment before motion; well-liked school, v successful

this site is too small to accommodate that large; point is quiet enjoyment of life of taxpayer equally imp; meet with school and see if can come to resoln, if req mediator, so be it

MOTION CARRIED WITH AMENDMENT TO 200m

4.  CORRESPONDENCE: Lists in prev issue; receipt only at mtg.

+ MS: Sat night attended at KMC, Sentinel school concert, Bye Bye Birdie

blown away by high quality of production

nice to see Kay Meek working with schools, these school productions outstanding; get KMC board to incorporate

Mayor: will mention it to them when we meet with them; I hears the same thing.

+ JC: Rachel McDaniel, Gr 4 from Hollyburn Elementary, went to finals in CanWest Spelling Bee, quite an accomplishment, and deserves congratulations, that's C-O-N-G

[laughter]

Mayor: we'll write her a letter.

+ VV; brief report, but shd refer to heritage house in ED devt (742 Keith) since Cclr Smith mentioned it earlier this evening.

I had made a motion that we do something to try to prevent it from going into the dumpster where it will be going v soon, unfortunately

I did make an inspection of that house to see if there was anything I cd do; disappointed to discover not bn safeguarded at all; bn open and vandalized, so the prospects of anyone accepting offer of rehabilitating it and taking it away for the nominally dollar has bn seriously diminished

I think v unfortunate b/c it was within our responsibility, I feel particularly bad b/c as rep of Ccl named to Heritage WG; unfortunate -- we're tasked to hire a consultant to develop a list of H properties, and one that is/isn't {not clear} in our care will have gone in the dumpster

sorry sad note, think most unfortunate

Mayor: I think that ev mbr of Ccl is sincere, and these competing interests v tough to choose from; good to see cclrs take their job seriously, that's our job

+ Sop: to support KMC and WVSS, Cclr Smith, I worked with the drama club in my profession for half a dozen school plays on a yearly basis

incredible effort by volunteers, incredible performances by students; no wonder enjoyable evening;witnessed it for six years

part of the success my abilities resounding till today

[chuckles}

+ RD: Heritage WG, has it been mtg ?

VV: not yet

RD: wd it be possible to start mtg?  it wd be nice if they cd consider this issue of the house

if to be demolished, shd at least hv chance to discuss, possibility to discuss; shd come before them, I shd hope

VV: Well, it wd be nice, but our mtg is not scheduled till May, so I'm afraid probably missed deadline

unless bldg still happens to be there; I must say having looked at it feel probably gone beyond point of rescue.  I feel badly about it, I hv a diff understanding of heritage.  It's not the bldg itself, like most of our built heritage, they're just funny little old wooden bldgs, this particular one dates back to the 1930s; it is the first bldg the British Properties built.  They celebrated the opening of the Lions' Gate Bridge in it with the then King and Queen.  And it does qualify in my mind for its use, what it was connected to, as a genuine heritage building.  I just don't understand why we simply abandoned it b/c there was a plan when the Ev Dr redevt was under consideration that it wd be preserved, and then suddenly at the last minute, for reasons I'm not aware of, it was just abandoned.  We didn't really didn't appreciate what was happening until it was too late

+ RD: I share your concern, Cclr V, thank you for expressing it.  I'm sorry to hear that the house has deteriorated to such a point b/c we did mention a few mtgs ago that we were concerned about it.

Two other things

- earlier in the month N Sh Sports awards in Pk Royal N Apr 3; well-attended, v interesting; excellent, there as rep from WV.

- RCrk WkG has been meeting; had six mtgs all open except our initial one, just organizing; continue to have open mtgs; had a mtg scheduled for Apr 26, so many out of town so cancelled; want to get that out early to make sure cancellation on website

making v good progress; will meet May 10, long mtg, 4:30 to 8:30; in discussion with BPP and three other owners in that area; I think we're in position to make some decisions in May and June

+ Mayor: sorry I missed Bye Bye Birdie; volunteers all talking about it at the cleanup; part of Kay Meek's dream

- I was at the Police Gala honouring Cal Shamper (sp?) for 31 years of service to the cmnty; a packed ballroom; great turnout and feeling

did thank him for his commitment, stories how times have changed since 70s

before charter of rights, police procedures; stories quite good

- billboard getting play again, spoke again with Minister's office twice last week; concerted effort with Sam Sullivan, NV mayors, oppose strongly; believe Sq N in midst of their envtal review

CAO; completed review and hope to work on it

Mayor: work on that week by week

- as chair of CEC want to report, hope Ms Scholes has an update on that; been pushing chairs and staff leads to post dates of the mtgs; think I've got most of them, with the exception of Envmt WG and Heritage WG who have not met yet.

Sop: next week for us [Envmt]

Mayor: hope will be on website; are we missing any?

SSch: think that's it, those last two groups; all webpages ready

Mayor: once in place, I think you'll be able to see updates on the Web weekly

the cmtes are meeting all the time; in my experience the doors are wide open

there is nobody that isn't interested in having any mbr of the cmnty walk in, if you can get in -- Rodgers Creek WG last week was packed with ppl working really hard

important for everyone to realize and be proud of is that we've changed how govt works and put residents at ctr, and that's not easy, it takes time.  We really only began on this in the new year, and in order to make the kind of effective change we're making, we need to allow ourselves time to succeed.  I'm v proud of Ccl for taking the kinds of risks it's taken, and I think they're already for the better.  Certainly if you ask anyone working in these groups, energy and smiles, all positive.

I apologize if this hasn't been as transparent as we wd like, only b/c ea and ev one of the cmtes hv bn helping to define the process with us.  That's taken a few short months.  Now ready and willing to be as open as we possibly can, every step of the way.

And that's probably 150 ppl working hard

Sop: when CEC comes forth, cd they outline legislation that allows cmte of this sort, also reasons behind that; ability to go and not go in camera, or how open are we

in consideration of posting, know it was going to be left up to ea indiv staff rep on some 13 cmtes; wd there not be opp for one indiv at city hall to be responsible for posting on the Web so that all info in one place?

Mayor: the info will all be in one place

Sop getting there is the point

Mayor: and it's new for staff as well; I think that's more of an operations decision but my view wd be everyone get web savvy and blogosphere-oriented as possible b/c that's the age we live in, so this cannot be seen as onerous for any one person; it's everybody's responsibility.

CAO: really the responsibility of staff liaison to post

we have had experiences in past, tried to centralize it, then if there is a miscommunication between that person and staff liaison, it doesn't get posted.  It's unclear.

This way we can hold the staff liaison accountable in making sure that info gets posted.

Sop: in future all mtgs of all the cmtes once, you have all info, we'll have it

Mayor: Absolutely

Sop: then we can rest assured they'll be posted

Mayor: yes

any particular WGs and under certain conditions, might need to go in camera?

CAO: certainly start, and we're in process of preparing guidelines, start with normal circs listed under Charter, then only other circumstance where situation, discussions under consideration of a prelim nature,  and for some reason the cmte may feel that, especially if you're in a situation where you wdn't want them, for example, reported in the press b/c of a preliminary nature, you wd want to have those discussions in camera.

we're going to be preparing a set of guidelines; the CEC has seen the first draft of those.  I believe we'll have them for the next mtg.

RD: wrt Rodgers Creek WG, we're talking about planning private property essentially for the British Properties and three other owners there

Mayor: plan it and post it.

CAO: yes

RD: so the mbrs wd decide in advance and it wd be posted that [closed]

RD:  that's what we have to do

Mayor: that's right

RD: interesting in that regard, a few mtgs ago Cclr Sop paid us a visit; last mtg Cclr V sat through virtually the whole mtg, a v long mtg too

so there's a lot of interest out there, and the public was there

we've had reps from old growth conservancy come, quite a few groups as well as indivs who have been in the audience

CAO: it is a new process, and I think we just have to respect that there are going to be times British Properties are going to want to divulge information to the WG that they wdn't want to have divulged as public knowledge.  That's normal.  That's included under consideration of the Act.  In the same instance we may have situations where our interests are being compromised if they're being discussed in public, so just got to be mindful of those things and from that perspective, nothing has really changed in terms of the rules.

CR:  Good evening.  I keep saying that I'm not going to say anything and then somebody says something that I have to speak about; and in order of what happened tonight--

The first thing is, that I was astonished that Cclr Smith [wd mis]represent Cclr V's motion wch was seconded by Cclr Day about the heritage house -- the motion was merely to explore what cd be done; and to follow up on that I have met/contacted various heritage/historical groups and Millennium -- and they're willing to extend the period b/c it was supposed to be yesterday [deadline was Apr 15] -- however as Cclr V discovered, and I did in discussion with BPP (British Pacific Properties), the house wch I thought wd be all right b/c it was suggested by staff in a prev bylaw, that it be a cmnty gathering place, cd be used as a daycare, so I thought: "oh well, then you know it's obviously in good condition"; but as Cclr V said there has been no protection, and the staff told Millennium that it wasn't worth keeping; and of course, a devpr is going to do whatever staff requests them to do b/c they're in their hands.

So I shd think we really want to look--

If a house is on a heritage inventory (it is; it's not high but it was there), and if some consideration was being made to keep it, it shdn't have been allowed to drop, and become damaged and destroyed; that's the responsibility I think that we as a cmnty hv to look at is, it might be, and now it might be that it's not worth doing anything about it b/c it's too late, but we don't want another asset to fall between the cracks and have something happen to it when we didn't even know it was threatened!

So I'm sure that was not your intention either, Madam Mayor, but I hope that we can have-- we'll still look at it, but from what I've heard, there's v little left, and that's v sad

that no one wd hv said that at least protect it, b/c there were some houses, and were fences around some, so it cd hv bn a minimal cost-- to at least wait until...

in fact, if at the time when staff said don't worry about it we'd been told, we wdn't be at this late stage

[if told] when it was threatened or when it was given up by staff or whatever, we cd hv started right then to look at what the possibilities wd be -- daycare, youth safe house, there are lots of possibilities.

Mayor: I'm sorry I missed the ccl mtg where Ccl decided to--

CR: I'm sorry too

Mayor: --take that course of action so that is a decision that has been made

It wd be wonderful to get the Heritage WG together as quickly as possible, and I believe, based on last year's work that Cclr Day and I were v involved in, that a Heritage registry is the no 1 priority,

and perhaps there's some work, Cclr V, you cd be doing with staff now so that you can hit the ground running--

VV: if I'm permitted--

Mayor: --as you want to do

VV: --a remark that, I think there's something wrong with our organization chart with this regard and yourself wearing the other hat as CEO, I hope might be empowered to act quickly--

Mayor: I don't know what CEO hat I wear, I'm the Mayor.

VV: ah yes, but simultaneously by the LGA, the CEO of the Corporation.

[JC mumbling under his breath]

Community Charter, Section 116  Paragraph (1)  "The mayor is the head and chief executive officer of the municipality"

VV: I was astonished to find that heritage came under the protection of the Planning Dept b/c I can remember Planners speaking with great pride about clearing that 20 acres and I thought, well, that isn't the person to put in charge of guarding the old house there, that's the fox in charge of the chicken coop again

We need to have a heritage mgr who has authority to protect heritage properties from land being cleared for devt

Mayor: So, the best way to achieve any kind of change or any way to strengthen heritage in the cmnty is to get that WG going.  Ms Reynolds, I think has bn appointed to that.

CR: tyvm

Mayor: wch is great, so we look forward to the outcomes

there are some really good staff in the Planning Dept who are concerned about heritage, I don't want to give that impression--

Mayor: there are; any further comments?

and one of the comments, wch I thought was rather interesting that the CAO made, is that they didn't want to talk b/c perhaps "it might be reported in the press".

Well, I have to tell you the press v rarely reports about any of those cmte or WG mtgs.  OTOH, and you might want to have an official report or something, I have heard some of the most outrageous statements made by ppl who have attended those mtgs, and there's no-- at least if you have it in writing, you can correct it.  If you've got ppl talking around, you can't.  So to give the reason it's got to be closed b/c they're afraid it might be reported, is not a valid reason.

I hope that when you do look at the guidelines, as I've had many ppl express, instead, and

look at the intent for finding out what's going on b/c, really, the Rodgers Creek Area WG [RCAWG]

and I really do appreciate Cclr Day's efforts to try to get their mtgs posted, is that ppl want to be satisfied about the process and how the decisions were made, b/c with these adv groups, and it's going to be the same whether adv cmte/grp/commission or whatever, when the recommendation comes to Ccl, it's 90% of the time approved by Ccl.  By that time a lot of ppl, some cclrs and some residents, feel it's too late

What are you going to change?

You don't want to put BPP through the cost of going longer or doing what staff and the Group say, and then maybe some cclrs or the residents want something else, so I wd suggest a town hall mtg on that asap

--but as far as going in camera, as long as the intent of the Act, wch is what you referred to last time, is there, and taking instead of a narrow view, an open view, b/c if. as some ppl are going to recommend, that density be increased from 2.5upa to a much higher density and on the grounds that that is environmentally more responsible and sustainable, wch many ppl think, I think it's really important for ppl to know on what basis somebody thinks either it shd stay at 2.5upa or it shd go up to much more.

All I'm saying, the rest of Ccl, and I think it's a good group, and I'm sure they're going to consider it seriously, but I do think there shd be a townhall mtg asap b/c I think the rest of ccl and the cmnty shd hv an idea of what's on the table now before it goes too far and it can't be changed

Mayor: you can't compare the processes, you just can't.  This is so fundamentally different, but I agree with you

CR: to have the openness--

Mayor: we've asked ev WG to consider what its public process will be b/c they're responsible for that as well

but it's extremely important so I'd like to take this opportunity to say that before it goes so far that the residents and other cclrs can't put their opinions forth, and before BPP has spent a lot of time thinking they were doing what everybody wanted and I'm sure they do, I really recommend highly a town hall mtg on it.

It's an extremely important area.

Mayor: all right, thank you.  Cclr Day the last word

RD: several things I want to correct here

the RCrk WG is just in discussion stage, nowhere near making decisions

ppl, nine mbrs, ea mbr has his own opinion

just b/c ppl expressing opinions doesn't mean we have to go to a town hall mtg at this point, we're just too far away from making a decision

I want to make it really clear that at no time has BPP requested or advocated going above 2.5upa

CR: that's true, I agree, yes

RD: the issue has been raised b/c it has to be raised

nine talented ppl who trying to be creative, so we're in discussion phase, they express their opinions, exchange ideas, and that's what we're doing, we're not ready to make any decisions at this point.

The other point I want to make clear is in terms of heritage.

I've been on the H cmte.  I was on for four straight years until Cclr V took over this year for me and was on for several years, as was Carolanne Reynolds, in the early years, in the 90s.  I have nothing but compliments to pay to our Planning Staff.  Stephen Mikicich, who was planner in charge of heritage, really has worked tirelessly for H in this cmnty.  Without him we wdn't hv had the H Strategic Plan that we passed last year.  He really worked v hard on this.  We did hire a consultant and all the rest.

There was a reference made to our Planning dept as the fox in the chicken coop and this just isn't fair and I really have to correct that.  I've never met any of the planners who weren't v strongly in favour of H.

The problem is we don't have sufficient legal powers to save heritage houses, we have to buy them in most cases, we have to acquire them; and this is the problem we face, it's not the fault of the planners

This is legislation and private property rights; and so that's the sort of thing we face, and again, I can't speak strongly enough, compliment enough, Stephen Mikicich's work, Planning Dept, he's our cmnty planner

CR: I want to make sure, I thought I made it clear I was not referring to BPP as suggesting that at all.

and I wd like to, if anyone got that impression, I'd like to say that  they're going to do what the cmnty wants, and as it comes to--

Mayor: Cclr Smith

MS: my name keeps coming up, I just want to thank Ms Reynolds for saying I astonish; I like to think I do it often in a positive way--  :-)?

I don't want to be painted into a corner of being opposed to heritage

I happen to live in one of the houses on that H Register on wch I spent over the last three years a ton of money to restoring to its original 90-yr-old condition

Guess I'm saying that wrong -- it's now in Bristol {=A7see footnote at end=A7} condition the way it was 90 years ago is what I'm trying to say

all I'm ... the only point, from a budget pt of view, and I think we have to make it v clear  we cannot consider proposals to spend millions of dollars on something that is not budgeted for, there's no staff report and the private sector won't even pay a dollar for.

This is how we go off the rails and we find the budget gets out of control; we just have to be more disciplined.

CR, refraining from reminder that no one suggested spending millions of dollars (inflation, I guess, b/c wasn't it hundreds of thousands in reference to Cclr V earlier?) and the dollar obviously isn't the point, the cost of the land to put it on is, and now we learn it needs restoration):

and if a restored home Cclr Smith is in I'll make sure we know about it and maybe we can recommend it/him for an award for all that work, b/c we've rewarded other ppl

{Mayor's laughter}

but from a staff pt of view, as I said, we have some v good staff and I think what happened again, I really want to stress: pls look at process b/c the staff involved from what I understand was not anything to do with heritage, it was planning; and so the point I'm trying to make is process.

and I also want to echo Cclr Day: I've found Mr Mikicich absolutely exceptional

ADJOURNMENT

G informs me Bristol is a sailing term.  I looked it up in the dictionary and it has "Bristol fashion" as meaning in good order.

For a chuckle, find out what bristols mean in cockney rhyming slang.

RATIFICATION OF RECOMMENDATIONS  FROM APRIL 16, 2007 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

14. REPORTS MAYOR/COUNCILLORS   15. PUBLIC QUESTIONS/COMMENTS   16. ADJOURNMENT

===  MAIKU  ===&n= bsp; about writing and language.........

2007 Mar 22 - 27

                        inform, amuse, inspire,   s h a r e . . . . . .

                        ~~~

~ Apr 14

+++  QUOTATIONS  +++   ETERNAL VIGILANCE IS THE PRICE OF LIBERTY............

{Translation of "illegitimi non carborundum" in last issue: Don't let the b*st*rds grind you down.}

We have in fact, two kinds of morality, side by side: one which we preach, but do not practice, and another which we practise, but seldom preach.

        -- Bertrand Russell, philosopher, mathematician, author, Nobel laureate (1872 - 1970)

"The wise learn many things from their enemies."  -- Aristophanes

"If the truth doesn't save us, what does that say about us?"  -- Lois McMaster Bujold, writer (1949 - )

"Almost all our faults are more pardonable than the methods we resort to to hide them."

                -- Francois de La Rochefoucauld, writer (1613 - 1680)