West Van Matters - WVM2007-25*: July 23/25 MTG NOTES; Calendar to Aug 31st/Sep

=== REGULAR COUNCIL MEETING JULY 23 ======= [directly follows PH]<= /div>
CALL TO ORDER

1. APPROVAL OF AGENDA

Mayor: approval of amended Agenda wch includes adoption of minutes and Item 5

[JF moved.]

Mayor: need motion to reconvene Wed 9am; add to agenda

Minutes of July 9 third item?

[SSch pointed out wd be an add'l sp ccl mtg Wed July 25 9am (clarification)]

Mayor: anyone here for anything? anything other than Item 5? will reconvene PH

2. ADOPTION OF MINUTES -- Adoption of July 09, 2007 Regular Council Minutes

DONE

---moved to Wed:

DELEGATIONS

3.         B. Robinson, Canadian Freestyle Ski Association, regarding an Overview of the Freestyle FIS World Cup Skiing Competition at Cypress Mountain February 09/10, 2008 for receipt

REPORTS

4.         2008 Freestyle World Cup Opportunities for West Vancouver

---------------

5.         Zoning Bylaw No. 2200, 1968 Amendment Bylaw No. 4517, 2007 (File:  1610?204517)

            If the reconvened Public Hearing/Public Meeting regarding Zoning Bylaw No. 2200, 1968, Amendment Bylaw No. 4517, 2007 and Development Permit Application 06?034 for Collingwood School (Wentworth Campus) held on July 23, 2007 has closed, the following may be considered by Council:

RECOMMENDED for second and third readings

JF: can't approve for reasons given; feel school hasn't worked enough with nbrs

don't think proposal for nbrhd necessarily best for

JC: too big a for small nbrhd; not a nbrhd school like Hollyburn; bringing ppl in from all over Lower Mainland

only xxx yet only .....

doesn't make sense, xxx

Ridgeview xxx ... don't know

each and ev elementary school, they have been worked on by our Engg

changed -- one-way streets, have been mitigated in ea and ev school, now last is Rockridge

doesn't happen over night; haven't seen any evidence by C'wood to be proactive; and be gd nbr they say

VV: v little to add to what I've heard; made signif changes in intention

headmaster -- effort to listen to, new spirit but it's a little too late, needed that a year ago

engaging the cmnty now

see what several months of negotiation might bring

can't go forward with a nbrhd so united against the project

without enough time

series of productive mtgs with school

agreeing with my colleagues not in position to approve

RD: agree with my colleagues

initial hope, wd internalize traffic and improve situation

struck with the Morven debates and now, the depth of bitterness

change its way; change a bad regime; magnitude of animosity and bitterness

Ccl really has no choice to but to vote against this bylaw

come back when it's got its act together

Mayor: find myself agreeing with Ccl

have really worked hard for years with C'wood to connect with nbrhd

ev has reasonable ... pride ... and connectedness

everyone on Ccl believes in C'wood and believes.,,,,,

we wd like to look at a proposal...

and shaped

probably it is too ambitious given the road network and xxx

no more motivated

to work

school will be.....

better

am sure first time ppl have heard that tonight

closing

all kinds of ideas

this is either not understood or too ambitious

Ccl great been xxxx

congratulate C'wood work done on Morven

second reading moved

[FAILS!!!]

Mayor: expect to see C'wood back and to work with cmnty.

[THEN MOTION TO RECONVENE July 25th 9am PASSES]

Mayor: I feel compelled to ask for for public questions. Is there any this evening?

VV: not even Carolanne is going to-- no?

Mayor: I know, only a bit of an announcement... RoyalTea

CR: very kind of you

Mayor: you thought I'd never ask!

CR, laughing (this was unexpected, had given up b/c so late, so put on my fancy tea hat and rushed up to say):

The RoyalTea is on Saturday from 2 to 4, and I hope you'll all come. Eighth annual one; pipers will be there. Thank you very much for allowing me to invite you all, after such a long meeting.

{In the surprise and rush I forgot to say it wd be at Dundarave Park; since so late I'd expected the Mayor to make the announcement b/c I'd had the flyer passed up to her.}

[ADJOURNMENT]

=== SPECIAL COUNCIL MTG -- JULY 25= ======= [Wed 9am]

Mayor: Good morning. Welcome. Apologize cdn't get through all our biz on Monday night but it was an important one for Collingwood. Approval of Agenda.

Sop: shd read special reg ccl mtg; withdraw Item 5 Animal Control Bylaw HBay, adding items 17 to 24 in Correspondence.

SSch: have received add'l Correspondence re 2484 Ottawa and they will be added as 25 and 26.

Mayor, renumbered agenda items: moving to Item 2

DELEGATIONS

3.         B. Robinson, Canadian Freestyle Ski Association, regarding an Overview of the Freestyle FIS World Cup Skiing Competition at Cypress Mountain February 09/10, 2008 for receipt

REPORTS

4.         2008 Freestyle World Cup Opportunities for West Vancouver

RECOMMENDED: THAT

            1.         The District of West Vancouver work in partnership with the Canadian Freestyle Ski Association around hosting the 2008 Freestyle World Cup at Cypress Mountain in February 2008;

            2.         Staff develop a plan and infrastructure for using the 2008 Freestyle World Cup to develop and expand our volunteer capacity, to build upon existing arts and culture programs and events, and to develop youth opportunities, sponsorships and partnerships; and

            3.         The details of the plan for West Vancouver's role in the Freestyle World Cup event be forwarded to Council for consideration and approval in the 2008 budget.

Bruce Robinson: [slide show] 200 volunteers; The Show Comes to West Vancouver

Sop: budget, $500K, in kind or?

Mayor: questions?

Ans: self-financed: in kind and what is comfortable

Sop: will ask later

JF: exciting; love opp; mentoring;

Ans: two-year project, 2008 but includes 2009; want to make long-term, not just 2010

MOTION

JChuback, staff: can't think of a better way; presentation energetic and inspiring

partners Ch of Comm, Cyp, Park Royal, xxx

engagement and volunteerism; opp to build infrastructure

already had enquiries of ppl wanting to volunteer

area need to look at re resources, in-kind or one-time sp grants possibly mgmt, enhancement for opening ceremony arts and culture component; we're working closely with Bruce

come back in fall, details etc

JF: maybe a WG, may be assistance out in the cmnty

Mayor: esp when combination; add that as a fourth, ref to WG

Sop: what is our portion of the budget? what's it going to cost?

JCh: to be worked out and choices for Ccl; from special events or grants budget

Sop: really supportive but open ticket -- what's the cost? any idea?

JCh: at a grant level of $5-10K, that wd be financial plus in-kind support

if Ccl chose, particular areas want to support

Sop: approval in 2008 budget; how assume what needed? as it comes along? what's our resp in the $500K

JCh: I expect we'll be working closely with our partners

expect in 2007, minimal support in budget in sp events; wd receive info in time

JC: wd like to point out to Cclr Sop that no 3 demands come back to Ccl; what I wd like to say, that over last couple of years since awarded there's been a lot negative, it's a two-week event -- this is an example, this is an event that cd happen year after year, I think in WV we need this sort of thing

Mayor: we are ready; we hired a Partnership Mgr to manage

{hm. This is news. Wonder if we'll find out more.}

we're being pushed to act

I've already been approached by sponsors; those sponsors have to fit in with our plan

agree with you Cclr Clark, time to get going

VV: from the way I read this, can vote in favour of this while not intending to put cash in

choice when xxx

not an impediment to supporting this

CARRIED

[Now Item 4:]

6.         Evelyn Drive Master Plan Approval (File:  1010?20?06?050)

[Sop always leaves for ED items b/c of conflict of interest]

RECOMMENDED: THAT The proposed Master Plan for Evelyn Drive be approved, subject to insertion of the revised sustainability section, illustrative site plans, and statistics contained in Appendix A, and design conditions detailed in Appendix C to the report from the Manager of Community Planning dated July 13, 2007.

G Boyle: three-part setup

first, architecture's design; secondly sustainability; staff re how measures up to bylaw

Nick Milkovich, architect, in front: 1-500Ksf of devt; it's steep enough for free-style skiing

natural setting, mature trees that have grown up

access to Pk Royal, zoning

three areas: minimize impact of devt on site, esp natural aspects; footprint is 31% coverage and that excludes paths through site, only 1.5% higher than sgl fam-lot ...

stepped housing; cluster housing; stepped terrace housing never more than two storeys above grade

cluster housing and apts integrate parking in lower edge, joint, minimizing impact of parking

ask Susan Wilkinson re environment, sustainability

SW: [slides] section in master plan that outline the goals and principles, commitment

exciting opp both for WV and Millennium, xxx

infill, smart growth, close to transportation

identified principles, measurable goals, used LEED rating system

three headings: sustainability LEED on concrete bldgs; use of LEED guidelines for sgl fam and townhomes. Can't achieve on woodframe bldgs b/c no standards for them but using as many as possible

doing as much as possible to retain trees

revegetation 50% of site

potable water use, 30% reduction, rainwater harvesting; pedestrian linkage worked with District

energy efficiency goal, geothermal will be explored for this site, healthy indoor quality

local bldg materials

three categories of LEED: design (where we are now): construction (reusing); occupancy

don't apply till occupancy; working with staff, made changes to current version

transparent process; don't get certification till occupancy

Mike Kemble: coordinator of this project for the District

consistent with CD1 zone adopted Apr 2 this year

innovation and sustainability

provide comfortable bldg fit, mix of residential units as well as variety of sizes and rental, pathways (see Evelyn Walk on slide)

50ft grade diff between PkR and Ev Dr

attractive streetscape and public realm

expect West Coast character; natural as well as more contemporary materials

proposal consistent with zoning except for a few areas and will be dealt with at bldg permit phase

use, number of units, lot sizes, site coverages (slight overage but overall do meet)

ht, in upper area A, technically these bldgs wd be considered five to six storeys but b/c of low, within

bldgs not always parallel to prop lines

we support variances, site differences b/c of trees, low profiles of bldgs, etc

other connections up to Keith Rd and to Taylor Way and to west

will be improvements to Keith Rd, and tree plantings; new roundabout connection in newly configuration of Ev Dr

displays at Pk Royal, most supportive; some concern about traffic and that will be dealt with with 2008 traffic calming study

Design, two mtgs, supported; disability cmte supported walk as proposed

sensitive response to site; devt will provide a mix and variety that fit with terrain

strong and unique sense of place; staff recommend approval with ..... and design... in section C

JF: how long do you think it's going to take to complete?

Hank Jasper: think in booklet, two phases and each about two and a half years so five to seven years

JF: ?

HJ: phase one western, working west to east

Mayor: wrt report, page 4: re concrete will meet min of LEED

I'd like to see shooting for gold

SW: 69 points available, 26 certified, 33 silver, gold 39

have to get into more detail of design to know; we can min, decision is .....xxx they decide

you cannot

aiming for certified level and aiming for more

Mayor: in conclusion, an adequate response to sustainability response, adequate?

Kemble: staff have asked for improvements, in your report; cd be higher, we acknowledge the dvpr is doing his best; clarify goals, some things not willing to admit

HJ: largest sust project in Canada right now except for Olympic Village....

able to start with base of 10 - 12 points in City; if we had that here no problem, we've had to do xxx, but we don't know where we're going to end up not having completed design

RD: some suggestion add an amendment, subject to LEED goals?

Mayor: objective might give goal/push

JC: might give bit of guideline

VV: don't think we shd allow the so-called minor variance to front setback, 20ft to 10ft, 50% is not minor; don't know why we'd want to allow that sort of devt

wd like us to keep the 20ft setback, don't think wise so close on a slope

wd set a precedent and think ppl living in the houses wd appreciate

wd like to add phrase, maintaining 20ft setback along Keith

GBoyle, Planning staff: if go back 20ft whole way, one corner is less but other end more so adds some variety and that was intent

direction going in? you'll see that later on

Mayor: seconder? no? then no amendment.

VV: appreciate twisted, only a corner, average, but sets a precedent

if 10%, or 2 or 3ft, might have been okay but 50% too much, will simply maintain my objection

JC: the LEED standard is the buzz word

[cell phone buzzed!]

HJ: you said buzz word!

JC: don't think ever been description, incentives for dvpr or just happy face at end of project?

GB: able to market at end

JC: selling tool

GB: yes; they come in and say meet it

the whole area of sust construction, nbrhds evolving v quickly

Olympic Village project is a pilot project -- new standard developing, more than emerging

JF: how pleased I am with this proposal, when you consider controversy around Ev Dr, and from outset; in fact we don't have a legion of residents voicing concerns

obviously devpr listened closely and to staff and have gone the distance

sensitive to those who retained their lots

think it's going to be a wonderful gateway; understand West Coast architecture beginnings of WV

think wonderful

RD: looking at model, notice some houses remain; six on one side and one other

to scale? apt bldgs built into slope, do the houses fit in?

HJ: to scale

GB: doesn't show detail

Ans: 2000sf, these 3-4K

RD: can't help but admire the architecture; lots of units fit into hillside and less impact than sgl fam dwellings; seem to fit better, nice touch; blend into hillside, proper colouring and trees; compliments

Mayor: Design Review Cmte enthusiastically endorsed this

happy to see Appendix C will xxx

stretch to the LEED

question about $350K

and a traffic circle further up Sentinel Hill; those residents have taken a great interest

GB: think I know area you're referring to; $350K to accommodate study and improvements

cd be one of the improvements

CARRIED

[This, as item 5, has been withdrawn:]

7.         Animal Control Bylaw 4208, 2000 Amendment Bylaw No. 4520, 2007 - Horseshoe Bay Park Dog Control Designation for receipt, then to third reading.

10:03am [Item 6 now]

8.         Sublease Modification - Sewell's Limited for receipt.

Mayor: wait for Cclr Sop to return

CARRIED

Item 7 now

9.         Revised Official Community Plan Amendment, Rezoning and Development Permit Application 07-015 (2388 and 2396 Marine Drive)

RECOMMENDED: THAT Staff complete a review of revised Development Application No. 07?015 after holding a Neighbourhood Consultation Meeting to solicit community comment on issues associated with the proposed Official Community Plan and Zoning Amendment for 2388 and 2396 Marine Drive.

Elaine Fonseca: Prez of ADRA; our Assn supports controlled grown; existing nbrhds; opposes upzoning

15 units on site; this is a duplex zone

more traffic, congestion; sets a precedent

feedback we get is preserve, limit density, ....; retain quiet quaint; protect

we feel too large a project in this area

Karl Gustavson: thank you for having us here; brief outline of what project about

based on feedback; reduced from 20 to 15 from three storeys to two, ...

also cons???

from 21Ksf to 17Ksf, reflects what cd be built under C1 and ....

not increase, a rearrangement

the key component what.... not what outside

local cmnty, v desirable of having elimination of commercial component, ...... lane

two excerpts from letters submitted: highlight my perspective

Robert Smith and ..... from Bellevue -- nbrhd concerns and wishes

share a residential lane, keeping comm vehicular traffic to min

C1 site wd allow commercial uses

OCP amendment we're looking for HC 3; site specific situations

H3 highlights certain items

devt minimal impact and obstruction of views

v lengthy and continual survey of view corridors

at second mtg we held, residents on Haywood concerned view blockage now none

H3 goes on to say separation, Mr Gremmet (sp?) lives next to lot will be turned into duplex and he's supportive b/c of elimination of commercial

lessen xxx

H3 goes on approp may include.....; know I'm always supporting adaptable bldgs

going to read another, 2372 MDr, Rebecca Buchanan: for us the devt means so much, means my dad will be able to live on one level in a suite for his needs, affordable and sustainable housing where I grew up and love so much

that's what H3 is for

summarize by saying process gone through; began as an all-commercial project; clear msg that came back was no commercial so I was engaged for residential, looked at live-work

mtg at Library 50 to 70 ppl came, and again no commercial, no view blockage, no traffic down lane; access to our parkade same as to C1 bldg but directed to 24th

.... wd have to come off lane

current restaurant off 24th but does not xxx

spoken to 55, not all, adjacent nbrs; majority with exception of two of the 55 v supportive of what we're wanting to do

asking Ccl; so we can demonstrate to you that this is the right project

RD: you said sq ftg wd be the same as if comm/resid

KG: true; if you include basement and garage, assume from est 17Ksf, my opinion

RD: supposing devt turned down and you had to build duplex on eastern and on restaurant site xxx

how many units on restaurant site?

KG: think we can get uh, haven't done analysis; probably ten units, eight to ten

RD: diff of three to five units

KG: small, HC amendment controversial but benefit here is great

speaker before me said wd set a precedent and no; only speaking about eliminating commercial otherwise wdn't be here; that can't happen

RD: any envtal advantages to sgl bldg rather than two bldgs?

KG: wrt sust, can do better with one; can be more economical, better efficiency with one bldg as opposed to two

[JC made motion]

VV: important to understand what HC 3 is

xxx

reiterating what wider cmnty wants; point of.... was to put wishes of wider cmnty

may not do what it describes.....

lays out conditions

H3 says, provide a degree of physical separation....[list]

check list, then can meet that test; if it fails that test then can't approve it

OCP is up for review for next Ccl; don't think we're legally entitled to do this

says it's up to whole cmnty not just those who live immediately around

voted against with 22 [units], now 15; can simply be rezoned to duplex and that wdn't contravene these xxx

did have an interesting complaint from a resident.... staff seemed to be advocacy

are staff reports supposed to be...objective critique; not bias?

SJN: staff reports options, can recommend

while H3; there is no sgl-fam nbrhd next to this; xxx

you're quite correct, Ccl is not to take an action against what's provided for in the OCP

there's some silence in the OCP what to do in this case

you cd actually change zoning xxx ; we don't recommend that

...permit area so can control design

..... consider residential area; consult with residents for example on Ottawa whether or not complies with bylaw; some in immed vicinity believe better

shd go out and xxx

VV: my reading of this, it does talk about multiple Ev Dr, Clyde Ave.... still multiple-fam; that's where mentions natural separation

obviously I don't have the last word; I understand this to be wishes of wider cmnty

if change, has to be another round of OCP hearings and new OCP.

on basis of what's in front of me I can't agree this...... but cd change comm to resid

JF: wd like to commend the applicant; example of an applicant that has more than followed...... applicant has made ev effort to speak.. xxx

changes on sev occasions, completely revamping

next step is for staff to hold ....... before coming to Ccl to xxx

fully support holding mtg; bring up concerns brought up by Cclr V

look forward to Ccl discussion and debate

am familiar with OCP, guidelines, designed to be flexible

prev OCP had 30+ amendments; Ccls amend OCPs to meet needs in cmnty

identified need for smaller, more accessible accommodation

so those of us who live in large houses can ......

now faced with conundrum, imp to keep in mind as proceed

JC: been made abundantly clear over the years; the broad nbrhd not pleased with bldgs on these two sites

clear over last few weeks, not particularly enthralled with replacing the comm on this site

whether this proposal the answer, I'm not sure, but we have the opp through Mr Gust and client, opp to replace with something better

this motion requires staff -- through process of holding a nbrhd mtg, not nec just one

ev man woman and child in WV, anybody who drives by it

think this is exactly what the OCP had in mind; creating a facility for ppl to get together and express

RD: think we shd go to nbrhd mtg; verify what Mr G says through mtgs

get last OCP in shape

intention was to protect nbrhds; duplex zoning is a form of multiple fam already

extension of Dund itself; across the street is two-storey comm

this devt is absolutely consistent with Dund nbrhd

Mr G has made contributions too -- putting in coffee shop

think there's an advantage to a sgl bldg, doesn't really increase the density

ten as opposed to 15, given superior bldg; think we shd go ahead

what cmnty wants, be v careful; protection of sgl fam nbrhds but perfectly acceptable mixed comm/resid

still involves some units -- live/work; so some element; shd move ahead

Sop: amazing how we can stickhandle our ways through

H3.... now; will have some interpretation of what it all means to us

in position RT1 shd be compromised into multi-fam

sq ftg not much diff from what was before us before

talked to ppl, sets a precedent; it's not sgl fam

cd build duplexes on site; three or six duplexes

not in support of going any further

know it can go to mtgs, take its own way

don't like the change in that area, won't support it

VV: back to point OCP bylaw, that was a xxx

it's a senior level of govt, takes five cclrs [to pass]

a M decision cannot be inconsistent or in conflict with [the OCP]

must be clear ...; not make xxx

JF: I have great respect for the OCP

had not been ratified, but I remember six mbrs of Ccl voted in favour of OCP, Cclr Sop did not that's his prerogative

Six did approve it xxx

simply discussing whether or not broader cmnty to meet with staff and have discussion

RD: restaurant is not duplex-zoned; change restaurant zoning; it's one duplex site

if turned down duplex on east side and some sort of commercial on west; cd be worse

no advantage to existing zoning I can see

duplex is mutlifam; Design has no xxx

not that we're endangering sgl-fam zone, contrary we're strengthening; where are ppl going to live

Ms Scholes, can two block this?

SSch: it's a majority; formerly was two thirds but now majority of cclrs, not just those present

RD: if all there?

SSch: wd require four

Sop: not my job to tell devpr what to put there

[JF burst of laughter]

Sop: glad you find that humorous

ratified OCP but not housing part

have left it with one, two, or three housing policies; Cclr Clark is now in that stage, look forward with great interest what's going to come out of that WG

if we take an area that has a certain character and suddenly asked to look at a multifam, think it's going to have a direct effect on that nbrhd

not supporting it

look at C1 zone, we shd tell dvpr to put there, he has to come back to us

JC: pt of order, this recommendation does not consider any amendments to OCP

authorizes staff to go out to cmnty and have a coffee party and ask what xxx

off, not.... amending for crying out loud

Mayor: at present eyesore; working with Cclr JF, SJN

point was to provide..... protection, b/c of TZ; been dead for seven years

on arterial road xxx

we all purport to hv spoken for nbrhd and believe we all have

... v best way we can do this is to send out to nbrhd; my hope is it succeeds

... here are steps we have to go through

first and foremost is xxx ; assume happen in Sept

RD: reason I asked about vote was that at one time two votes wd hv bn enough to defeat so then no point to proceed but now changed

Mayor: Item 9, no I mean 8

10.       Development Permit Application 06?015 for a [Two-Lot] Subdivision at 4249 Rockbank Place

RECOMMENDED: THAT the report dated July 12, 2007 from the Manager, Community Planning regarding Development Permit (Difficult Terrain) Application 06-015 which would provide for a [two-lot] subdivision at 4249 Rockbank Place be received for consideration on Monday September 10, 2007.

Mayor: has been a tricky one

GB: yes, Sept 10 will hear from applicant and nbrhd; been some minor changes since applic came in

imp all hv opp to come to [provide points of view]

Mayor: Item no 9

11.       Process for Consideration of an Equestrian Centre (File:  1020?01)

RECOMMENDED: THAT the report dated July 17, 2007 from the Director of Planning, Lands and Permits titled "Process for Consideration of an Equestrian Centre" be received.

SJN: Ccl asked us to report back to us; eight to nine acres, formerly 26

proponent has identified a number of sites

far more complex below the 1200ft level; there are areas above useful, land has not been acquired and that has not been intended

site in Rodgers Crk area, never contemplated

question is whether can be brought up in discussion of Rodgers Crk; said that staff will be considering overall uses

may consider the equestrian aspect of that xxx but re lands to west wd require envtal studies

if a parcel comes up above the 1200ft level we cd be bringing that forward to Ccl

Ccl owns land well above the 1200ft level except for one park site, Allan Crk

dealing with private lands to be acquired or M; wd be a process for that

proponent modest cost

normal process wd be for Ccl to decide what sort of eq ctr and then put out for proposals, not deal with one proponent

..... natural parks, mtn bikes

Mayor: ?

VV: one or two questions

NV has an equestrian ctr and has had it for several decades; seven or eight acres and as a private enterprise

researched that?

understand

apply to NV then to us; any legal reason we can't do it that way?

SJN: can; we do deal with public land: tennis club, lawn bowling club, Hollyburn Sailing Club

we define the needs then put them out to bid

xxx

those types of tools av; what wd not be permitted wd be for the M to provide land to a for-profit xxx that is aiding

VV: then how can NV do that, a family biz?

SJN: they wd be negotiating for commercial/market value

we do as with a concession stand

what renewal wd be

we cd acquire land and then advertise for bids

VV: other thing I'm curious about, that no one is really available to work on this

waiting for the best part of another year for staff to be av to work on this

SJN: staff will never have time to do envtal studies, devpr does that -- millions$

other parcels, acquiring

either going to pay market; Ccl wd be subsidizing use, IOW xxx {taxpayers' money?}

if land outside of area devt lands, cd be a private proponent cd do studies; they are expensive

the only example I cd think of of that was a golf course; they spent hundreds of thousands of dollars and M was sued

not something go into easily

{POINT OF ORDER: not quite.

The difference was that it was the District itself that proposed a golf course and then asked for bids to provide one. They had a cmte and did choose one.

Little snag.

Turns out it was on park land that cd only be removed from park land with a referendum. The referendum turned that down.

Readers are astute enough to realize not just that the instigation was DWV not a private operator so it's a different situation/responsibility, but also that perhaps DWV ought to have gone to referendum before asking for golf course applications.

hm

I was on Ccl then and it was residents who informed me that a referendum was needed.

Yes, you read correctly. Residents. Not the Mayor, not some other members of Ccl (others besides me were not informed), and in particular, not staff come to think of it, who must have known.

Ah, yes, Minister. (for those familiar with the BBC)

BTW, does that remind you of staff not telling Ccl the Collingwood zoning bylaw was not being complied with?

Yes. Yes. The Power of Staff.

Information is Power.

So is withholding it.}

VV: think I understand can't say we want that piece without.....

considerable by applicant and parks ppl, surveyors

exercise of finding land suitable pretty well concluded; area next to Hydro substation

looked at OCP, dotted in new parks one right north of 25 acres.... 30 acres

not expecting to buy them

SJN: anticipated wd... buy... identified by Heinz Berger in the 1980s, went around finding flat land

then ICOS report identifying parcels

subsequently found extensive wetlands.

except for Cypress Falls Park

do intend to..... DCCs to purchase, from BPP

site 1 to be acquired for combined park and primary sch site

next to xxx is a sensitive area, the area in and around Hydro more suitable

area up by third switchback

priv ownership

acq some by transfer of density, some from purchase, well exceeds 5% park dedication

VV: point then, small amendment

most suitable location enormous amt to recommend it

the owner has already submitted plan, where devt and shops are

so rudiments in place b/c immed to South, Hydro substation and ROW so not much flexibility

then xxx

other sides schools worksyard, the Cypress Falls, and xxx

Mayor: we're talking about receiving the report

VV: just talking to amendment

Mayor: will come back

VV: and xxx

our OCP shows park in same location

have offered to preserve wetland... so if we reconfigure..... and acquire instead... looks like a win-win

must hv bn studies for Hydro, so feel we're tantalizingly close to a win-win, as part of park anyway

looking for 12 to 15 acres anyway; wd only hv to acquire a component

not just receive report, but staff neg with landowner

make ev reasonable effort to neg for those lands so we don't just stall on something that looks ev bit as advantageous as the skiing

looks to me like an win-win; better b/c our plan cashed with theirs

Mayor: Cclr F put motion on floor

JF: did

Sop: I'm waiting for Cclr V's amendment

Mayor: report is a big step

also clear timing is 2008/9 given our priorities; Rodgers Crk WG is what we have to follow through on

as we move west, anticipate incredible interest in shaping, must be careful about moving too fast but can keep this as a priority

need to pass xxx and xxx

VV: move staff be directed to make ev reasonable effort wrt RCrk approval, will give same name -- priv land by Hydro substation adjacent to Cypress Crk; shd say acres or?

Sop: second

JF: wrt reasonable effort, what does that mean? explore opportunities wd be better

not just say we want this land and just for an equ ctr

also other groups looking for areas; particularly mtn bikers, xxx, xxx

hate to see one rec group in opposition with another

wondering what 'reasonable effort' wd entail

Sop: I don't think the idea or dream of eq ctr shd go away b/c we don't have immed plans

possibility of looking at areas; work in concert with what Cclr Day's doing

talk about recreation; right in sense don't want to see competing

opportunity for this mtn top not been defined: looking at skiing, hiking; shd also be consideration of an eq ctr; not nec competing, cd be joint effort

number of ppl who will visit in next three to four years, natural fit

can't just let it go b/c we can't see land just now

idea Cclr V has, take a look and see where future lands

certain requirements, in vastness, can't see why not some site, even if smaller

just don't think it shd go away at this time, just b/c in report nothing available

maybe eq ctr for BC Parks

will support amendment

RB, DoAS: remind Ccl two components, workplan and integration of other recreational uses

understand amendment to a specific

if possibility .... if rec priority, it be amended to staff take into consideration looking at alternate sites over short period of time

have identified other areas, those are two imp points Ccl are considering and will impact staff resources

SJN: my understanding, work, acquire a site, not a specific site

VV: I did name that site b/c that's the first choice and everything else wd be a compromise to run it successfully

really make a try

what do we really mean, every reasonable effort; test to see if staff worth their salt

may be back and forth with landowner, but shdn't be left hanging a year from now

JF: then I'd suggest a subseq amendment, in context with other rec uses

we do have a number of rec uses already on our list

this may be a latecomer not reason not to, but need to find best sites for all rec

who gets what, need to study in context and not singularly

Mayor: that implies a bigger picture and Cclr V's is focused

from my point of view none of this makes sense without Amenity Policy

best way to go is get that Public Amenity policy back here xxx

see way going west

V going is separate to this report

right now question of amendment

JC: in view of Cclr V's remarks withdrawing seconding

SSch: can withdraw, but can also vote against

Sop: second

Mayor seeing vote on amendment: fails

on motion: carries with Sop opposed

JF: my preference to come back in fall

Ccl is prepared to take a look at potential somewhere in WV, do in context of rec and land use

come back with a notion

putting something together

SJN: there will be an amenity package in association with RCrk, Ccl can assess it

Sop: wonder what we're coming back with

supporting if if if

going to be a long time; need work

looking at space now? will endeavour? say that's a geat idea? let's be positive

Mayor: we also know a priv company from BPP interested in an eq ctr

says interested so open; doors open

first and foremost is Cmnty Amenity policy

begun now, moving on

Mayor: items here to new 15, 16

CONSENT AGENDA ITEMS

Sop: wd like to speak on 14 16 18 25 26 in Correspondence {to do with 2484 Ottawa and the Gibbs family}

12.      Consent Agenda Items - Reports and Correspondence

REPORTS FOR CONSENT AGENDA

13.       Development Applications Status List received for information

14.       Development Variance Permit Application 07?019 (4343 Erwin Drive)             RECOMMENDED: THAT the report dated July 10, 2007, be received for consideration on Monday, September 10, 2007.

15. CORRESPONDENCE LIST FOR CONSENT AGENDA [listed in prev issue; those removed from consent here]

...

(14)     J. & L. Gibbs, July 12, 2007, regarding Development at 2584 Ottawa Avenue (=B1 11 Names, No Signatures)

{Linguistic note and I have written correctly what some ppl said even though they did not pronounce the possessive or the plural properly. The family name is Gibbs, so it's Mr Gibbs's house. The family therefore is referred to as the Gibbses, and the Gibbses' house.}

Jann Gibbs: group and what has happened

originally a personal request to help us negotiate with a nbr has now evolved to a huge nbrhd outcry

worried about my rights

concerned about character and nbrhd, particularly Dund

ppl concerned losing their rights; feeling like victims in their own cmnty

want to look at what problems are

we have had public involvement

what is happening in Dund is happening elsewhere, being altered, changed

replaced with larger homes

consultative process not happening; if so, this wd not be happening

know builders building to code, maybe unaware or insensitive to needs of cmnty

as a cmnty not against dvpr, feel they can enhance cmnty, can design and build

not against, want to work with them

nbrs knocking on our doors, we want to help you; letter sent with 30 sigs

as started to evolve, the cmnty wanted to get together

mtg at our home, 23 attended, Sop first to arrive and last to leave; Cclr Mike Smith was also there

a microcosm of Upper Dund

2500 and 2600 block Ottawa looking at what is happening

nbrs who attended love Dund, old, small homes

worried changes happening so fast may be irreversible

all spoke, Cclr Sop listened to everybody

42 recommendations evolved from that mtg

a group of ppl not only wanting to complain but saying I'll work to make a change in this area. One noted that on Bowen, Hood Point had an amendment made to bylaws that wd provide for more descriptive {guidelines?} in that area and more consultation so can't build without consulting with nbrhd

something you or we cd look into it

had a lot of professional ppl; nbrs who were architects and designers, looked at house next to you think something might be wrong

look into that

now four architects kind of looking into this issue

a second issue came out of this; petition also outcome from this mtg

nbrhd's fear of ..... objection to what is happening, reiterating need for consultation; 18 sigs

we're novices, this was not written legally, just to reflect what nbrs said

wd like you as Ccl to be part of solution, help us

do whatever it takes

given the xxx

issues are collaboration and consultation

if you need to hire extra staff, do that

be a stronger leader, I'm going to make a difference

do support your [initiative] Mayor, nine nbrs

{reference to having to contact nine nbrs in NV, done when Mayor was cclr there}

like to urge you to be even stronger in your role; prove to cclrs needed and needed immed

we need your help

ordinary citizens don't know what to do

in Dund wd like you to consider possibly what Bowen has done

help us to communicate and xxx with builder next to us

that wd start process right now

what can you do to support us now?

what do you recommend we do to start the process?

what is it you can do to help us?

Mayor: have you provided us with the 42 recommendations

JG: draft, being drawn up, couple of days

Mayor: when ready appreciate; will listen then to Ccl

11:28

Lock Gibbs: cmnty mbrs and myself concerned bylaws not being applied as written

in 1980s reduced from .45 FAR to .35

{Yes. 1989. One of my proud moments on Ccl, responding to residents' rejection of 'monster' homes. Cclr Day also voted for the reduction.}

inspection dept has excluded covered decks

understand it is an application, results in larger than [intended FAR limit]

the bldg as a result, able to build quite a large house, mass

we had an artesian well of emotions; not just a few ppl speaking in the dark

no idea so much support in a two-week period

negative impact of large houses....

really care; whole lot of new friends; result v positive, we're bringing Upper Dund together

situation in our case, see picture, see footprint of new building: our house built high on lot, this house 80ft in length, this is the wall going up blocking view

say we sold house 15 years from now, presumably cd build higher, and right down to south

have a case of a house building further down lot

nbr competing against nbr, whoever builds last is the winner

here are satellite pictures from the DWV website: here's our house, here's picture of old house, looking down lot; these are new devts

see line there, you see this devt quite further down the lot [straight......]

concern about one person getting better view, having advantage over before

here's view we had [photo]; from looking at design from Planning Dept, will look like that [blocked]

can see a bit of Stanley Park, before we cd see Stanley Park. ....... and over to mtn

we object to house extending so far south; if we sell, next will build even further south

difficulty getting info from Bldg Dept

Lewis Morris, lives across street, went to Hall and asked for info and told had to put in writing and [said?] that I was nbr; as soon as discovered objection, seemed to xxx

difficulty

opposite to here, when we come staff helpful; situation with devpr and .... that area

talked to other ppl, much more broadly

retired, 65 years old; engr make a decision defend to end

cultural approach, feel has to be examined

here's photo after excavation

this devpr, and when Lewis mentioned this, staff said wd hv to stop

noon

devpr continued to 2:30, rock flew over fence

at 4pm I went to xxx, even though red card was given unfair to stop work at that moment

we thought this was xxx

we really want the feeling of being supported and our concerns treated with respect

devpr has moved slightly and think has reduced by 3ft, not 10ft rather than 14ft

but really awkward for us

we know how to express ourselves but a vast majority don't want to come forward

consultation with ev

know it's a small devt but feel it's important in Dund, sgl-fam homes and suites for inlaws

if required to talk with surrounding nbrs at least some impact, more diff to plough ahead

this is a key thing

how much discretion shd Planning have as to what's included and excluded?

xxx

recognize have to work within bylaws

unable to verify bylaws have been enforced as intended

unable to have satisfaction

feel something about privacy of info

xxx

Lewis Morris is a design consultant, has taught architecture at three universities, currently designing something in France, he'll speak about the elevations

we found a diff set might be more

and we have one more picture

LM: thx; currently doing a small house in southern France, Denmark, England, seven provs in Canada

at design end, not drawings and specifications

one of the first things an architectural student shd learn is to be aware of what's on either side, vernacular of area; in school if you didn't do that you wdn't pass

when I moved to Dund 22 years ago, I met nbrs v quickly, first cpl of days they came down

heard I as renovating, made suggestions; still friends today

Dund was different, change inevitable; high street with restaurants, food stores, Beach House

beach, pier modest; lot of ppl want to live here, I did 22 years ago

become more difficult

25% of the lots in our area gone to new houses, most to dvprs

when priv indivs second off Nelson, did build deck but 45 degree angle so guy next cd see past

had to have been dialogue, concern with view of other guy

know it did exist years ago but xxx

if you don't get approval of next door nbr in south of France doesn't go ahead

in NAm, don't think need xxx

it's a positive

Lock and Jann Gibbs have tried to dialogue with devpr, nothing other than token reduction of a few feet

other side lower deck covered by ....... over, big deck

hv seen some huge decks, met with Bill Sop and SJN: bulk of houses in Dund too big

even with exceptions, still can do positive things

we're talking about height of structure, not just bulk

have elevation on Lock's lot; established pins on other side so not a stretch to see what natural grade was before built

Lock showed pictures

prev house had large retaining walls showing grade

from our observation of site plan in Planning Dept, and our examination in detail to est av grade, that the levels were taken off the elevation of the patios of the prev house

thought the defence wd be can't est prev grade but with .... established, you can .... grade

you can establish what the natural grade was at that point

the planner said he did take that into consideration

we looked and we cd see what had been done, done on elevated patios

cd say complicated but it works to establish what allowable height of bldg can be but it's critical

maxed out, with all the exceptions to bylaw; objects to dbl garage and basement for most part excluded

It's still too high; I recommended to Lock that you put a hold on this permit until the natural average grade, can get an assessment, agreement on this.

Mayor: not trying to cut you off; vital to Ccl

have two more mbrs to speak; Ccl to speak; just looking at time, last mtg running up against

LM: just finishing a couple of houses on the east coast of Canada

you have to talk to nbrs; discuss; make a real positive attempt to listen to concerns and do something about it

shd try to leave a smaller footprint

we have to dialogue more; small picture but big

Mayor: do you want Mr Bowen?

LG: was here Monday, here this morning but had to leave for a medical apptmt

he's left me written comments; he is an architect

value of land, occupancy, character of land, ..... prop values

I suggest dvprs pushing the envelope without due...

... Building Dept is not enforcing the bylaw

includes buildings...... decks, shd be

highest, est of grades at bldg perimeter

shall comply with

no 2 bylaw 3774; wch areas excluded from FAR other than ........

do not include open or partially enclosed

no 3 av natural grade; shd be determined all undisturbed soil on site and adjoining

av finished grade excluding....

my greatest concern is that the Building Dept does not allow viewing of plans and xxx

interpretations of the bylaws

make corrections during .... phases

once concrete poured, mistakes apparent, v expensive to correct, compensate, xxx

I suggest the review process shd be more transparent

Elaine Fonseca: thank you for opp of speaking to this issue

I am in a similar situation but not to the extent the Gibbses are

a lot taking down and xxx

we might not own our views but we pay for them; assessment, taxes

I was invited to the mtg at the Gibbses; extraordinary devt

our ratepayer assn supports ..... and residents' rights

we have a moratorium to preserve our views and xxx

at Capilano Highlands, we know you Madam Mayor, xxx???

if they can do it on Bowen where I also [have property] ....

it's time WV does the same

lots of nbrs like the Gibbses, and their rights are being trampled on

Mayor: start with Mr Nicholls, we've gone back and forth

SJN: been going in same direction

Mayor: slow

SJN: one is legalities of entire situation

know in my xxx with Mr Morris, xxx

there's a FOI issue, but we hv done

still with 25ft but do agree cannot establish use xxx

will certainly have a look at that

been involved with a number of areas, most recent Clovelly Caulfeild

normally a group of nbrs start and then diff of opinion

moratorium

ask wd you like to have a say about building next door to you, 100%

ask wd you like ppl next door to tell you what you can do -- no prob talking

comes up when severely affected like the Gibbses

that's where debate

second is rewriting the zoning bylaw, have rewritten it three times in past 20 years including reducing .35

whatever it is, not special for mine, make for all

general is too big, change FAR and exclusions

will affect my prop value, xxx about selling

can do it again

certain things happening in certain nbrhds

diff between buying home as an investment vs I can't afford to do that or I've lived here and v concerned about around me and don't want building around me too large affecting street

third one more diff from my

Hood Point is a priv devt; they have a say, cd be the Point Assn affects those plans

if Ccl passing..... then into a big debate

ev has somewhat diff opinions, not modifying, big

when you put a moratorium on, nbrs say go ahead, others oppose, puts Ccl smack in middle

no guidelines

not something we recommend do easily

nbrhd planning issues is something we intend to do this fall

don't believe it helps the Gibbses

meaningful discussion with ppl next door

they don't need a study of bylaws in WV, xxx to a situation??

Sop: it was an interesting exercise; met Gibbses; here's a couple realizing a westerly south view completely blocked

{I think the house they're talking about is actually east of the Gibbses' house.}

bylaws support builder can do that and you have same right but been point out last kick at can can do what want

at least a dialogue, wasn't a no and don't build but if you can communicate, stories with great results, on that street have bn

one question I wd ask Mr N: if mass of house has been interpreted, such as covering of decks bring new massing, where have we seen this?

seen proliferation of peaked roofs over decks

SJN: this is the height calc, not FAR; the interpretation, a word we use; do it so consistent

know what answer we give until somebody argues

{oh, great process; really is squeaky wheel getting grease. What if you're out of town???}

do we go to exterior of roof or building, and bylaw says both

may be original exterior

if that had been a reason for disadvantage

did, and it's not over 25 ft

that's interpretation and

now Mr Morris may say where you're measuring from is wrong, and we'll look at that

{why not standardized? ripe for sweet deals!}

Sop: if mass affects nbrhd, isn't it maybe a consideration a rewrite of laws?

when you say interpretation, interpretation today of bylaw, why didn't this massing show up five years ago

look at

SJN: wdn't say interpretation change

seen a few, may be new design

whether house too large or not, not new

been specific, these parts included, these not

{right; be specific}

others saying

not interpretation, just what you include and what you do not

in late 70s early 80s prices going up, put controls

question was what did WV consider too large

more recently, maybe Mr Morris can comment on this b/c he's a builder as well

amt of money ppl willing to put into building didn't think of it, house construction now continues out to street and brought up in Lower Caulfeild

not an interpretation of bylaw, it's what ppl are doing xxx

amt in Amb and Dund, Mathers and Altamont, extraordinary

over $200M worth of devt

JF: every nbrhd

real reduction in their qualify of life

don't hear ppl speaking about against change but being done at expense of surrounding nbrs

don't know what we can do to change that

my hope is that with the Housing Dialogue will come back with some suggestions

v imp that happen

in last 20 years seen ppl maximizing what can be done on prop b/c of $$$

hope see a turnaround

can see highly valued residents, benefits of being smaller, greener

that's where we can lead

housing character and ppl who live around them

been so long getting to Housing Dialogue, not fast enough, sincerely want to

need some assurance from Bldg Dept being as transparent as possible

sure [abuse?]

xxx compliance with bylaws so that understanding can be controlled, and that we're attending to biz of the cmnty

v difficult in this cmnty ev site in this cmnty v different

interesting exercise rewriting zoning

VV: find it interesting and ironic, presentation on ED saying how much smaller

RD: to scale?

yet v close by, houses that are modest

standing by while monster houses, xxx

don't seem to have our act together

[monsterization?] in Amb and Dund and new small scale ecofriendly

schizophrenic

why not retain the small nbrhds we have?

excellent that Mr N is rewriting the bylaw, but why not two sets

trouble coming from redevt

in Upper Lands, pretty well settled 3K on 10K

if they don't build within two years, can buy back

so can't bulldoze, blasting

can we not have a code?

not allow

ppl have to be able to blast, blast away have a ball, but xxx

once nbrhd character established..... we shd be quality control

we shd be guarantor of quality

wd like to see some; may be difficult

JC: apologize for not attending

but it was [same time as] the cmte on housing dialogue; that cmte working diligently

feel that they will come up with a series of recommendations but that won't be for about a year

I think, personally, shd be looking, agree stewards of cmnty, same rules at same time

except in situation like Clovelly when come together and agree with

been talking re Clovelly probly two years

wd be interesting to consider moratorium on some sort of, really don't know, any new teardown, wd require some sort of permission to extend beyond existing footprint

{good idea, John!}

had that some years ago but didn't go v far

you were, Mdm Mayor, involved in NV; maybe cd apply it in some form here; incumbent on us to try

can't help you Mr Gibbs unless you get a mirror on that wall

favour of some sort

RD: complicated question

first ran in 1980s b/c upset what happening in nbrhds

still same xxx

made efforts; passed three provisions, tightening; we have more restrictive legislation than any in western Canada...

created Lower Caulfeild Conservation zone

has helped, not been perfect; xxx

LCC zone still looks good, not as good as when I moved here 40 years ago

Clovelly, Caulfeild, Piccadilly v large houses, excessive blasting

set up an Assn, they came up with v good proposals, blasting, etc, declare DP area wch wd hv given Ccl more [control?]

all of a sudden opposition b/c wd lower prop values....xxx

on hold now

not that we're not willing to do anything

not failure b/c will get some reforms but it was a setback

with three bylaw revisions, shot down by a lot of opposition

if we declare the whole of M a DP area, cdn't do that, haven't staff or Ccl time

our nbrhd WG is going to be faced with a lot of challenges; year and a half, wd like faster

surprised, devastation going from east to west

nbrhd with views, build as high as can for

go down with no views, lower

higher, xxx

linked to certain areas; Altamont doesn't look quite as bad; want to see something done, not certain what; your input is welcome

if your org, [can get together???]

some sort of devastation

can't use monster houses any more, mansions, bad taste for nbrds; know we can't control taste

SJN: before, looking at bylaws, don't believe blasting, soil removal; not Housing WG

other groups, nbrhd workshops, expect to begin this fall

don't think we're talking about a timetable a year or two

what nbrhd group come up with, broader

RD: what kind of bylaws? reducing FAR? sideyards?

SJN: look at issues come to Ccl with them

cd be dealing with FAR, amt of blasting in that area

diff for diff areas; diff for smaller lots than larger lots; may vary in areas

JF (since well after noon): am cognizant of the time

while we may not be able to make anything magical happen today

maybe staff ... Sept... that we expect a builder prior to bldg permit to have engaged in conversation in a prescribed area

at least to have made an effort

those builders might just be swayed into doing what's right, before beyond stage cost too much

Mayor: moral suasion

.... done quite a good job of articulating the problem

creating a culture, that's an easy step; will be some respond to that

next, what is required, what must you do

wonder if your WG teams, subgroups

JC: have them

Mayor: ... digging into the nbrhds

certainly in Edgemont, difficult, .....yes, are, but when lifted prop values really increased

...tapped into before, it isn't easy

we have Planning Dept's commitment to look into this devt

perhaps

know that the nbrs are going to be able to view these

know Ccl wd .....?? ... design .. all those objectives

it's getting on, I've got a mtg at 1 o'clock and we've got ppl for PQP; shd we refer this to your WG?

JC: yes

DONE

Mayor: and you're welcome to attend those WG mtgs

RD: think something stronger, such as expresses sympathy, looks forward to revision

WG. ..... take into account

JF: a motion? I'll second

RD: expression

Mayor: go with this material

Sop: I understand what Cclr Day is saying

grassroots starting: Upper Dund Assn growing

also told them they cd sit and watch what's going on in Housing WG

too late??????

challenge that

...xxx ... what we saw that

we all sat there b/c v interesting subject

it behooves me; as Cclr Day says, when it comes down to in your face, we haven't done enough

RD: what we just passed sends a msg

maybe it will send a msg to this devpr

that day may be coming to an end, they'd better be listening

Mayor: I have someone speaking on another matter

Fulvio Verdicchio: the reason for my speaking today

Ev Dr moving along, it's a good thing, keep a good thing going, but missing some we can achieve

[Sop left as required for this issue]

in March spoke with Geri Boyle about undergrounding and said she wd get a [quotation]

spoke to Mr Kemball, still waiting for numbers from BC Hydro

right now phenomenal, a lot cheaper working now, really give this devt the look of an exclusive devt

why leave those wires, poles, for 60 years on Keith Rd

SJN: I do know we've requested info

FV: we're going to lose the opportunity; wch is why important, give direction to Planning Dept

Mayor: that's what they're doing I believe

FV: if wait longer, come and gone

SJN: we haven't waited

RD: we're trying

SJN: we're getting the info out, but I understand the time to act is before you begin construction.

FV: thank you

Mayor: Item 14, Reports; I've reversed Public Questions and Comments b/c I wanted to move through that list. Reports.

16.  REPORTS FROM MAYOR/COUNCILLORS

RD: Concession's open at Dundarave... Sunshine came yesterday; hamburgers are excellent.

VV: Fam Court and Justice; why has WV received but not adopted?

last year two NVs have adopted but not WV hope wd be adopted before

SSch: followed up, did adopt in Sept 2006 and did convey that

VV: obviously issue that has been confused in that cmte .....

Mayor: before close, wish everyone a well-earned break, and I'm coming to PQP

hv had ambitious, ambitious legislative agenda; doing well

when reconvene will see we're probably two thirds of the way through to what we wanted to accomplish; think we've just had a little bit of an introduction to what next year looks like, around housing and nbrhd character

JF: see you at Harmony Arts

Mayor: absolutely -- and RoyalTea on Saturday 2 - 4

17. PUBLIC QUESTIONS/COMMENTS

Mayor: Now, Public Questions and Comments, and Juanita Tupper has been waiting patiently.

{for complete information, below is her presentation/text, then January letter followed by June letter as emailed to me}

Juanita Tupper -- 16th Street.

See my letter of June 28 to Mayor and Council, signed by 34 residents/neighbours. (agenda item 13 (1))

On a rainy January 1 night - water overflowed and blocked too small culvert on Vinson Creek, at Kings & 17th ("the alley from Inglewood up to West Van High and Kay Meek").

        - it rushed down 17th (the alley) hitting the West Van High South Campus

        - east along Inglewood

        - down 16th - east on Haywood

        - down 16th to Fulton.

It rushed into homes, via driveways and across lawns .

Public Works was called twice; then Fire & Rescue, whose truck sat at 16th & Haywood over two hours (12- 2 am). It did not alert sleeping residents, resulting in much greater water damage to homes.

Disabled residents at 16th and Gordon had to be evacuated and re-located for 3 months.

Total damage: $250,000+ to 12 homes, the high school; many hours of hard work; and looming house insurance problems.

I would rather spend time financially supporting flood aid in Bangladesh -- or even England right now - than repairing my WV home.

It appears after [six months'] research, that this water event was preventable. We wish "water damage prevention" could be as successful as "fire prevention" in West Van.

      - it need not happen again.

      - see our four recommendations in the letter - (1) culvert design and maintenance (2) enforcement of dumping-in-creek bylaw (3) street slope design  (4) clarification of communication procedures, with and between, PW and F&R during emergencies.

(UPDATE: I WOULD LIKE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT AS OF LAST FRIDAY, CULVERT RE-DESIGN IS UNDERWAY.)

By the way, I am here because my initial Jan 18 letter to the Mayor resulted in a reply from the Director of Engineering that was pleasant but defensive of the status quo. It also reflected what I call the "silo effect" -- a lack of cross departmental planning and communication, e.g. bylaws, risk management, creeks, environment, roads - and particularly Fire & Rescue. Even the Police.

I guess I just expect more of the highly expert staff we have in West Van.

We need a more service-oriented, problem-solving culture.

Thank you - have a good sunny summer and - hope I don't have to be back before Council in the rainy months!

>>> LETTER Jan 18

Re: Water Damage - 16th Street (Inglewood to Fulton), 1500-1600 Haywood, 1500 Gordon - night of January 1-2, 2007

Dear Mayor Pam,

Our home, and 11 or more other homes, were damaged by water on the night of January 1-2.

I have two major questions:

1. What actually happened and what exactly was the municipal response? For example, what did Fire and Rescue, Public Works and the Police do? (Between 11pm and 5am) And more specifically, what was done at the corner of 16th and Haywood between 11:45 pm and 3am?

2. What are the existing municipal policies, regulations, and procedures which guide the following matters:

   a) the alerting of inhabitants of a developing " water situation" in their yards and street.

   b) street re-paving and re-design of curbing (particularly in front of driveways) (summer =9106 on 16th Street)

   c) culvert design

   d) culvert maintenance

   e) culvert storm surveillance

   f) ditch depth and size of driveway/path culverts (ref: 951 - 16th Street)

   g) priority given to safety of inhabitants and private property

I would like to formally register a complaint with the municipality. I would like these issues raised in order that (1) all West Van residents fully understand the services/non-services we are paying for and that (2) changes might be made to the policies, regulations and procedures regarding the above issues to improve our services.

I would also like you to know that, ten long days after dealing with our household mess, I asked and got some information from Assistant Fire Chief Martin Ernst; and today, Director of Engineering and Transportation, Emil Barth, responded in some depth to my telephone questions of January 15. I thank them both -- but feel greater attention at your level is required to (1) prevent future situations and (2) provide a level of support to those affected the most (e.g. the Group Home at 1560 Gordon and several neighbours).

I will away from January 19 to approximately March 8,and I look forward to your reply upon my return.

With thanks - (I know these wind/rain/snow storms are very demanding!)-

Yours sincerely,

Juanita Tupper

c.c. Emil Barth, Director of Engineering and Transportation

c.c. Martin Ernst, Assistant Fire Chief, Fire and Rescue

>>> LETTER Jun 28

Dear Mayor and Council,

Re: $250,000(+) Flood Damage due to Overflow of Vinson Creek at Kings Avenue- January 2007

The purpose of this letter is to bring to your attention recommendations related to water management of Vinson Creek.

The recommendations are based on investigations by residents who experienced, in total, water damage in excess of $250,000 to their 12 homes when Vinson Creek overflowed at Kings Avenue on the night of January 1-2, 2007. The South Campus of West Vancouver Secondary School (WVSS) was also flooded. The homes affected are on 16th Street between Inglewood and Fulton and in the 1500 block of Haywood.

Our recommendations are:

        Redesign and improve maintenance of the Vinson Creek Culvert at Kings Ave.

        Ensure full enforcement of the "No Debris Dumping" By-law.

        Redesign 16th and Haywood Streets to provide proper protection from water.

        Clarify communication procedures pertaining to resident protection during emergency situations.

Our observations and recommendations are summarized below.

Redesign and Improve Maintenance of the Vinson Creek Culvert at Kings Ave.

Observations:

The culvert at Vinson Creek and Kings Ave. (just east of WVSS) was the location of the blockage which caused the flooding of 12 homes in Ambleside and the South Campus of WVSS at Inglewood on the night of January 1-2, 2007. There have been regular calls made to Public Works regarding culvert overflow at this same location over the past 15 or more years, as reported by the homeowners at 1595 Kings. In addition, the South Campus of WVSS has experienced flooding from this creek on previous occasions.

We note the damaged debris catchers, which were there in January, have recently been replaced with ones of questionable design. There still is only one main culvert and no overflow culvert. The distance from the creek bed to the road is only 50 inches (half that found at Lawson, Mathers, Ottawa, Gordon) which further enables frequent flooding.

Recommendations

(a) Undertake an independent engineering assessment. The purpose will be to analyze the distance from the creek bed to road level and determine whether to deepen the creek bed OR to make a dip in the road to direct excess water to flow south, across the road, and re-enter the creek bed. Alternatively, an overflow culvert must be incorporated into the redesign. The functionality of the current debris catchers must also be evaluated.

(b) Enhance Maintenance Schedule. Increased frequency of debris checks during the winter storm season is essential. Back up personnel from other departments must be utilized. The maintenance schedule should be publicized.

Ensure Full Enforcement of the No Debris Dumping By-law

Observations:

Debris from storms, construction, and garden refuse contribute heavily (and regularly) to culvert blockage and subsequent failure. This has been noted at the Lawson Street dead end (one block west of 15th). Bylaws exist but are not enforced.

Recommendations

(a) Publicize and enforce the existing bylaws on dumping onto creek banks and beds.

Redesign 16th & Haywood streets to Provide Proper Protection from water

Observations:

16th St. (Fulton to Inglewood) was "resurfaced" in 2006. The street now slopes down to the East instead of to the West, where there is an existing ditch to absorb extra water flows. At this time, protective "dips" in front of driveways, on the east, were removed and replaced by a small ledge (about 1 inch high). The flooding creek water, which rushed down 16th Street and east along Haywood, entered many homes via these new driveway entrances which are totally inadequate and, in fact, made the flooding worse. In May 2007, the 1500 block Haywood was resurfaced with no driveway curbing.

Recommendation

(a) Re-engineer 16th Street and Haywood, improving grade/slope, curb design, and ditches..

Clarify Communication Procedures Pertaining to Resident Protection during Emergency Situations

Observations:

We have contacted more than 6 departments of West Vancouver District and Municipality and it appears there has been little communication between departments with regard to the January 1-2 flood caused by Vinson Creek.

On January 1, four members of West Vancouver Fire & Rescue (WV F&R) attended the flood site for over 2 hours (11:30 pm to 2:30 am) but did not knock on doors to alert residents of the water flow. This lack of notification substantially increased damage to property. It is evident that the role of WV F&R in such circumstances is constrained by set operational procedures, which are unclear to citizens of the community and may not be in their best interests.

Public Works worked with insufficient emergency communication and staffing.

ByLaw Enforcement, in the Administrative Division, is seems unable to prevent dumping.

Risk Management, in the Finance Division, took 70 days to respond to a letter regarding liability.

The Engineering and Transportation Division responded with only general information. A list of written questions addressed to the Mayor on January 18, 2007 was forwarded to staff but the responses did not acknowledge the seriousness of the matter nor the number of area residents affected.

Creek and culvert management are not organizationally related to road design, although water problems involve both. Similarly this is the case between Public Works and WV F&R Services.

There is an overall shortage of inter-departmental communication and coordination.

Water/storm damage likely exceeds fire damage in West Vancouver and can be expected to continue to escalate given changing climate patterns. WV F&R has been successful in limiting fire damage (fire total $1.6 million in 2006; $400,000 in 2005).

If the January 1, 2007 "water event" were to reoccur in the future, it will be more costly and with greater problems from insurance agents.

Recommendations:

(a) Increase the communication between the many separate specialist departments to deal with cross-departmental issues such as Water (Creek, Flood, Storm) Management.

(b) Clarify the responses and roles of Fire and Rescue and Public Works in all emergencies.

(c) Publicize updates on what citizens can expect of their local government in case of emergencies. e.g. regular inserts in the quarterly Utility invoice or Tidings in the North Shore News. (Websites are not available during power outages!) Topics of concern:

        Creeks/Roads/Flood

        Fallen Storm Debris

        Fire

        Earthquake

What are Fire & Rescue able to do?   Not do (e.g. contact residents)?

Who to call when Public Works Emergency Line does not respond?

In conclusion, we the undersigned believe West Vancouver has the knowledge and expertise to take action to avoid a repetition of the flood damage our neighbourhood experienced in January 2007. Our observations are evidence of the serious potential for [recurrence] of flooding resulting in substantial property damage. We ask that our recommendations be acted on prior to the start of the next storm season (i.e. November 1, 2007).

Yours truly,

Name of Resident / Signature of Resident / Address of Resident [Petition, 34 names]

.....................

Mayor: I have followed up; wd like Mr Fung to report on that to all Ccl

RF: fairly extreme storm event occurred in January

response involved Public Works as well as Fire and Police; Police followed up with own press release; illustrates extreme nature of situation

wrt letter, even after the incident happened

magnitude, staff did bit of debrief; together with risk mgmt worked with sch bd as to what approach to take

recommendation no 1 in letter is being followed up

redirect water, staff procedding on now; scheduled for week after long weekend

debris screens we do after signif storms

as opposed to fail-safe situation, no matter how much we try to clean things out, things can go wrong

redirect the water, what wd happen if debris screens get blocked; make its way back into creek again, feel wd address

wrt communication believe interdeptally can improve communication

Fire and Police have v rigid protocol they follow

Public Works staff have been taking more courses in Incident Command System Protocol and believe wd allow our staff to communicate with firmly laid down protocol F&P have and allow more synergies to occur

Juanita Tupper: they don't have ability to communicate by radio with Public Works

wd hope for kind of emergency procedures Police in WV now have, capacity...

just dumbfounded us; they were actually the ones who finally got in touch with Public Works, b/c we cdn't get them. Amazing.

Mayor: you will follow through... work beginning this summer... appreciate recommendations; think staff following up on most of them... will you report that back to nbrhd?

JT: ...most anxious to hear and thx v much

Sop: when called by Tuppers; did walkabout in area, quite evident driveways no longer had formidable lip on it to prevent going into their driveways; ... whatever steps? to prevent if another flood?

RF: can look at further; redirect what flows back into creek first

look at what add'l protection need to provide; matter perhaps an asphalt curb cd be contemplated b/c road had just been done

{er, um; why if just done, not done with lip???|

wasn't any intention of redesigning that street, thought we'd take it one step at a time

if asphalt curb might do the trick, may follow up

Sop: to clarify are they going to? ea prop going to get asphalt curb?

RF: not investigated that; will look into that

RD: I live in that area; Lawson, Vinson Crk smaller to east, about 100m between the two

most of the time not aware of it, that night became a v big creek

we didn't get a flood on Lawson, but close to it

good job keeping the debris trap free over on Inglewood, but McDonald further west has a diversion channel, more effectively controlled that creek whereas whereas Lawson doesn't but it's just as big a creek or almost

urging you to take a look at Lawson as well as Vinson, a lot of ppl live on Lawson look at particularly possibility for a diversion channel; know been some plans for Lawson, never been done

RF: the diversion structure in place, from both Lawson and McD

provision in Whitby subdiv, not in place yet; plans in place and proceeding; so Lawson and McD taken care of

original plan was to have six creeks from Brothers to Rodgers

staff doing total review, given Rodgers Crk work, plan, to see what contribution to diversion structure; will be taken into consideration

taking into consideration Vinson and Brothers as well

RD: Lawson, McDonald diversion in Whitby you said proceeding, has it begun?

RF: in some cases, all that remains for that system to be hooked up is an inlet (?) structure; pipe has been extended; that last little bit to go into the creek, remains to be constructed or made active

RD: you're doing it now?

RF: I'm aware of that project

RD: means you're doing it?

RF: In fact, it's a devpr responsibility, written into the subdivision for BPP, part of the commitments BPP is following through on.

RD: they told me they were waiting on you, that was a few months ago, but you're on it

RF: when the drawings come through, and staff review them as appropriate.

Mayor: Thank you. Cclr Clark, motion to adjourn?

JC: I was going to move to extend the mtg till--

[laughter]

Mayor: Cclr Sop?

Sop (holding flyer): The RoyalTea..... Saturday 2 to 4

Mayor: Dundarave Beach

Sop: and info can be had at www.royaltea.ca or phone 922 4400.

Mayor: thank you

ADJOURNMENT {and thanks for the RoyalTea announcement}

...and that's all she wrote -- till September!

apologies for gaps, etc. I don't intend to play the tape to do a fuller transcript, but wd be grateful to anyone who is kind enough to send in the missing bits or provide further information. It can then be put into the website version or cd be an "UPDATE" in the next issue.

=== SUBSCRIBE to WVM:

Of course you can subscribe by going to the website www.westvan.org but you can also write to subscribewvm@westvan.org to receive West Van Matters as soon as it comes out by getting the email broadcast. Later it is put on the website and a limited number of copies are printed and distributed.

You are also most welcome to contribute (or send corrections and updates) by sending email to editorWVM@westvan.org.

If you pick up printed copies, pls consider defraying the expenses (paper, printing) of about ten cents a page.

=== (more) BARD-KU ===

                booms reverberate

                Caesar's presence dominates

                Brutus conflicted

                        and their deaths end his era

                        with Antony ascendant

             Allan Morgan's face

             stone chiselled Caesar

                        reign or iron rule of Rome?

                Brutus pivotal

                        convinced, removes him --

                                then stabbed by Antony's words

[FYI: Allan Morgan plays Caesar; Scott Bellis plays Brutus; Craig Erickson plays Antony asking to be lent some ears; Katrina Dunn directed]

=== QUOTATIONS ===

Nothing produces such odd results as trying to get even.

                        -- Franklin P. Jones

Conceal a flaw, and the world will imagine the worst.

                        -- Martial (Marcus Valerius Martialis)

Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?

                        -- T. S. Eliot (1888-1965)

Science is built with facts as a house is with stones--but a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house.

                        -- Jules Henri Poincare (1854-1912)

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.

                        -- Martin Luther King Jr.

He who dares not offend cannot be honest.

                        --Thomas Paine, philosopher and writer (1737-1809)

I get up every morning determined both to change the world and to have one hell of a good time. Sometimes this makes planning the day difficult.

                        -- E.B. White, writer (1899-1985)