HERITAGE ALERT:  an Erickson-designed home (end of Isleview) on an 'unbuildable' lot to be demolished; renowned architectural gem -- let's try to save, please HELP! (below, at end, see background and contact info; see photos  at   http://www.arthurerickson.com/H_grah.html ).

=  MAIN ITEMS Ccl Mtg Nov 5: Veterans' Week; Prov Electoral Boundary Readjustments opposed; Cmnty Ctr Quarterly Update and Parking; Correspondence on Hugo Ray Park, Dundarave Traffic/Parking,...

=  Vive le Canada; (Royal Cdn Legion); BOOKWATCH (More on View Through the Trees plus Dord, Diglot); INFObit (Halloween); gRUMBLES (acronyms); CALENDAR to Nov 20th; Mayor's Remarks at Civic Reception

=  Oct 29th Ccl's Rodgers Crk Workshop NOTES [NB: Next mtg Nov 8, already on Cmnty Calendar!]

=  AGENDA Nov 5th; FAQs (acronyms revealed); More on Erickson's Graham house; Tanka; Quotations; Subscribe

=== VIVE LE CANADA -- November 1 to 11 -- dedicated to our local Royal Canadian Legion, Branch 60

Legion Branch 60 veterans and members will be stationed throughout West Vancouver with Poppy Donation Trays. Poppy Trays will also be in select local merchant locations until after Remembrance Day.  The Poppy Campaign is a major source of funds used to assist veterans, ex-service people, and their dependants. For more information about Poppy Campaign Funds, please see http://www.westvan60.com/poppy/poppytrust.html

The CFL's BC Lions half-time show will honour veterans. A parade, including veterans, cadets, Canadian Forces personnel, and bands will take place on the field during half-time.  BC Place Stadium.

Branch 60 members and the general public are invited to attend this service which honours all veterans buried at Capilano View Cemetery, 1490 Third Street.  To view pictures of last year's service, please see http://westvan60.com/Gallery/albums.php?set_albumListPage=2  All those attending the service are invited to a reception afterwards at Branch 60's upper level Memorial Hall.

== Nov 7 Wednesday ~ 7pm ~ A Film for Remembrance Day - FREE  (sponsored by the Library)

~ 12:30 - 4:30pm ~ Remembrance Day Entertainer

The entertainer for Remembrance Day is Gwen Gouchee with Bob on keyboard in the Members' Lounge.  Come and enjoy her Remembrance Day Show:  "We'll Meet Again", a special nostalgic celebration of Remembrance Day through the most wonderful and touching songs made famous by Vera Lynn and other artists during the WW I & II years.  For more info about Gwen Gouchee please visit her website http://www.gwensinger.ca/home.shtml

~ 2 - 4pm ~ Saturday Nov 3rd at the Library "West Vancouver: A View Through the Trees" by Elspeth Bradbury.  Elspeth will talk about her long-awaited book on the history of the forests of West Vancouver.  Books are $45; proceeds go to the Lighthouse Park Preservation Society.  Enquiries to environment@westvancouver.ca -- it's an elegant book with beautiful photographs.  She speaks Nov 17 at the Museum (see Calendar below).

You can buy it in bookstores in more than two dozen countries:  Other countries: Amazon.com

Happy reading!

What could a senator, a Muppet, an advice columnist, and a baseball player all have in common? What is one word that describes Bob Dole, Elmo, Miss Manners, and Ozzie Smith?

They all are illeists.

An illeist is one who refers to himself in the third person (for example: "Miss Manners does not condone ...") and it's one of the words discussed in my new book, released today:

ISBN 9780452288614

This book is published by the Penguin Group and it features stories about words and their origins -- all true stories. You'll learn what the word cantaloupe has to do with the pope, what word is coined after Socrates's wife, and what a wellerism is. Find it in your local bookstore, neighbourhood library, or online at Amazon.com.

I'm told it would make a fine gift as well.

I hope you enjoy it. I'm looking forward to your feedback.  -Anu Garg (words-at-wordsmith.org)

=== gRUMBLES [See FAQs/Language, = at end]

Are you perplexed and puzzled by acronyms?

Do you feel reading WVM is like eating soup with a slotted spoon?

==  Wednesday Nov 7th   ~ 10am ~ Cmnty Engagement Cmte

                ~ 6pm ~ Cmnty Ctr Governance WG at Srs' Ctr

In honour of Remembrance Day the orchestra will perform Nimrod, from Elgar's Enigma Variations, Bach's Sheep May Safely Graze, and Samuel Barber's ever beautiful Adagio for Strings. This concert programme will open with Academic Festival Overture by Brahms and close with the Dvorak favourite, Symphony No. 9 from the New World. Come and celebrate the exciting start of a bright new VYSO season and share with us, a Remembrance Day reflection through music. Concert admission by donation.

==  Monday Nov 12th -- Khahtsahlano Road Race ~ 7:50 - 11am, HBay to Park Royal

==  Tuesday Nov 13th -- Cmnty Grants/Soc Services WG ~ 7pm

        ~ 7pm ~ NSh Family Court & Youth Justice Cmte at CNV M Hall

~ 7:30pm ~ WV Streamkeepers: Public Mtg at St Stephen's (agenda in next issue)

==  Friday Nov 16th -- Arts & Culture Strategy ~ 8:45am

Please join Elspeth Bradbury, the author of recently published book, West Vancouver: A View Through the Trees, who will describe the relationship between plants and people through 10,000 years of co-evolution.  West Vancouver has been blessed with magnificent natural surroundings. Above all, it is the forest that has shaped the community's history that colours its present and challenges its future.

+++  WV MEMORIAL LIBRARY +++ see www.westvanlib.ca for more!

   LPPS mtg -- Elspeth talks about her book!

   Explore ancient Spain's pilgrimage route with Bethan Davies and Ben Cole, authors of Walking the Camino de Santiago.

   Please bring your own copy of the novel. Drop in; no registration required.

   A true-life story of the spontaneous Christmas Eve truce declared by Scottish, French, & German troops in the trenches of World War I.

Friday 9    Teen Movie Night: 6:30 - 8:30pm  To register, phone 925 7408. Space is limited.

Thursday 15 DOC.TALKS: Supersize Me:  6:30pm

   Morgan Spurlock embarks on a journey to find out if fast food is making Americans fat in this documentary.

+++  WV MUSEUM +++   BEHIND THE WIRE -- Nov 7 to Feb 9 

the Board of Variance, the British Properties Homeowners Association, and the Heritage Strategy Working Group; the Ambleside Plan Working Group, the Squamish Nation Caring for Our Youth Committee, and the Rotary Club; The Arts and Culture Working Group, the Western Residents' Association, and the Community  Day Committee; the Community Dialogue on Neighbourhood Character and Housing, the Kiwanis Club, and the Design Review Committee; the Environmental Strategy Working Group, the Council Remuneration Task Force, and the Howe Sound Lions Club; the Community Engagement Committee, the Altamont Community Association, and the Friends of the Ferry Building Gallery; the Gleneagles Community Centre Advisory Committee, the Youth Police Advisory Committee, and the Coho Society; the Child Care Working Group, the Harmony Arts Advisory Committee, and the Library Board; the Rodgers Creek Area Plan Working Group, the Royal Canadian Legion Branch 60, and the North Shore Spirit Committee; Parent Advisory Council Chairs, the Friends of the Library, and the Lower Caulfeild Advisory Committee; the North Shore Family Court and Youth Justice Committee, the Library Foundation, and the School Traffic Safety Advisory Committee; the Seniors' Centre Advisory Board, the Hugo Ray Park Society, and the Old Growth Conservancy; the Kiwanis Tribute Tree Program, the Library's Teen Advisory Group, and the WinterSong Festival Board; the Sports Advisory Forum, the West Vancouver Chamber of Commerce, and the Friends of Cypress Provincial Park; West Van Streamkeepers, the Community Services Working Group, and the Horseshoe Bay Residents' Association; the Finance and Audit Committee, the West Van Shoreline Preservation Society, and the Community Services Working Group; individual sponsors for the arts and the environment, the Community Centre Governance Working Group, and the Ambleside and Dundarave Ratepayers; the Police Board, the North Shore Wetland Partners, and our Youth Advisory Committee; Police Department volunteers for Speed Watch, Graffiti Watch, Business Watch and Victims Services, and the Retired Firefighters Museum and Archives Society; the Kay Meek Arts Centre Trust Board, and the Heritage Strategy Working Group; the Community Tourism Foundations Working Group and of course, the Ambleside and Tiddlycove Lions Club.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------* Aryo is 11 years old.

Mayor: pleasure to be joined at Ccl table with mbrs of the Rodgers Crk Area WG; will ask Michael Rosen to facilitate the mtg

MR: thank you, Madam Mayor.  Can I call you Pam?

Mayor: sure

MR: go round -- you have name tags; talk about yourself, let everyone know who you are:

BW: Brian Walker, Dayton & Knight, we're consulting engineers

HK: Harold Kalke, volunteer on this group

JB: Jennifer Bailey [cdn't hear what she said as description]

FM: Frank Musson, retired architect

Julia Rylands: National Research Ccl

[Then JF, VV, JC, and Mayor]

MR: Michael Rosen, I'm a Planning and Devt Consultant

RD: Rod Day, Ccl rep to the WG

Sop: Bill Soprovich, councillor

MS: Michael Smith, councillor

SJN: Steve Nicholls, Planning Director

Dean Mailey: I live in the community directly affected by this devt

Sheila Scholes: M Clk

JB: John Barker representing WV Streamkeepers

MR: Thank you all.  Presentation by Geri, walk us through plan; then we'll articulate our

then we'll have dialogue, important to have that with Ccl

we've met on a number occasions and talked about planning principles and policies

what wd Ccl find acceptable, where does Ccl stand on this matter

been asked to participate ant provide our perspective, not nec what Ccl is thinking

this is some of our observations

Ccl is made up of seven mbrs, with different views; ccl mbrs shd be speaking as individual ccl mbrs

there are no decisions or recommendations being made; simply an opp to have a dialogue; share with you some thoughts; still much to going the process; we'll be providing a recommendation to Ccl; tonight just opp to dialogue

Geri Boyle, Planning staff: run over the planning process

most of the ppl in the audience have seen this [black and white]

done by BPP and their consultants, done with staff; sieve analysis

WG established and began their work; drew up organizing principles -- they're on your desk

After first draft, there was an Open House wrt physical envmt; set of actions was presented

one of the results of OH, good feedback, hadn't paid enough attention to recreation so added that to our organizing principles

Starting to move toward finalizing; consultants working toward an area plan; result is what you have tonight and being reviewed

another Open House, toward the end of Nov, I expect that to happen

then we'll come back; finalizing the plan and bringing it back to Ccl; cd be a Town Hall mtg before going to bylaw; bylaws to prepare, then move ahead with devt, a separate process

that's in terms of where we are; overview, still more work to be done

My thanks to BPP for providing me a copy of their presentation

Focus today is Ccl and WG discussion; I'll give a brief overview of this particular report

first step after the Upper Lands Study of 2001; then OCP 2004; the WG and staff has to take some responsibility in this process, devt process

key feature is the mountain pathway (unifying element, opp to get around other than by car); future Cypress Village to the west, in talking stages -- played an important role in planning -- it's outside the RCrk planning area; proximity to amenities

recognizing land itself: five nbrhds, 2 to 6 (1 is Taylor's Lookout, not on this but BPP wanted to keep numbering

possible 85 cmnty benefit housing units over and over the OCP maximum of 2.5upa; those are the hard facts

[slide] this drawing preliminary planning and conservation areas: first areas to build, yellow between, green is RAR (Riparian Area Regulations); no watercourses piped, remain flowing

Chippendale Road forms the southern boundary of these two nbrhds

both of these nodes hv sgl fam and multifam units, 69 units 1.37upa; transition area; compact housing; cluster housing on slopes; secondary trail system

Area 4 is called Mulgrave nbrhd and the school forms the southern boundary; largely sgl fam, has some duplex and triplex and a multifam

red bldg is mixed use, retail bottom; residential above; 133 units; this is the one area where...

five-acre prop owned by Roeck, and three five-acre units various owners but managed by one

trying to hv flexibility to expand Mulgrave school, have asked that plan try to provide for that

heading west, Area 5, now access from Upper Cypress Bowl Rd, have had to go around the Worksyard

efforts were made to find a connecting road out but topography not supporting that

161 units, in apt form, some townhouses; along south boundary of this area is the mtn pathway

Area 6 is Upper Village East: 161 units, two cmnty benefit sites: in total, proposed cd accommodate up to 85 units also includes cmnty benefit unit like the red bldg

different guidelines for lowrise -- hint of what you'll find in overview

directions from OCP and WG, diversity of housing: 524 units, 20% of them sgl fam includes compact lots; OCP says no more than 40% sgl fam so more than met that policy of the OCP; 6% duplex and triplex, 14% townhomes, and 61% apartments

OCP: to build nbrhds

secondary route will connect to main path

this section will be forested and will come into Area 5, urban area, to views and these will be facilitated; intend a water feature

ideally a private cmnty facility; view Stanley Park and Jericho

sustainability - environmental, social, and economic

minimizing the environmental footprint

waste mgmt during construction; green bldgs for multifam, LEED system -- Silver is their target, REAP used at UBC; alternative heating, ground source; best mgmt practices in stormwater mgmt, a learning area

pathway a social element; cmnty amenity buildings; housing variety

Sop: Chippendale Connector has been altered

what is the impact of no decision on that road; when will that decision come forth; will have an impact on ev -- where are we on that and when decision? has to come to Ccl

GB: 1000ft Connector, shows connects down to Cypress Bowl Rd, not an engg road in the OCP

got translated into ability to put it in the ground; won't go into evolution of how arrived at that

trying to provide flexibility for Mulgrave School but retain for other possibilities

another objective: does road meet District's policy so it must satisfy our needs

tweaking to get to this plan but still haven't got to whether it will meet District's needs in the long term

this was prepared late August and ev else has flowed from this

through Sept/Oct staff has been looking at the issue; make sure we minimize that

Michael Rosen: glad you raised that; appears to be options quite diff

we were asked to make decisions re land use and we felt road had to be better understood

we said to owners you guys get together and work out something that works for all of you, work with staff; pleased to see something has come together on that issue

Just like Ccl, we are seven or eight indivs who share diff values and interests

essentially reflect a consensus; some issues some feel more strongly than others

my understanding where the group stands -- I may not get it right, so when finished I'll ask my colleagues, to make sure I have represented the views

I'm hoping listening you were excited and impressed

this plan is a major departure from BPP's approach in past; OCP, understanding land as its foundation; work done to determine what was developable and what cd be.

we were absolutely impressed by the depth of investigation to get to that point

we applaud it, think work great, recognize work in progress, pleased

impressed by collaboration between BPP and staff, and with our WG

our observations, BPP's been listening; we're happy, v pleased; no buts yet

some of the things that impress us:

~  mtn pathway and trail network -- want something that rivals the seawall; this pathway seems to do that, unifying feature, gonna tie the nbrhds together

not naive that ppl will leave their cars; hope use cars less, this area is still somewhat isolated, as an amenity, fantastic feature

~  width, 3 metres but that might not be wide enough, needs further investigation

~  Area 6 thought pathway cd be integrated into that nbrhd; bring it above Cypress Bowl Rd, the idea wd lead to the Village, ways to move around

Observations of subareas

subject of much discussion; has the most sgl fam lots ...  [slide says unknown]  80% multifam; this area always jumped out at us; struggled b/c appeared to be impetus for sgl fam was from landownership and we maintained that shd not determine land use, the others shd (envmt, transportation), wanted to raise that for Ccl

plsd parties were able to work out Chippendale Connector with Mulgrave -- will they expand or not?  right now it's in limbo so we struggle with the overall landuse plan for this area

a plan tries to manage, not predict the future; maybe it has to anticipate both scenarios; wd like to know for certain; continue to encourage the parties to provide us with some certainties

largely a multifam area with a mix of townhouses and apts; probably responded to terrain as best as possible

like higher densities b/c close to what was supposed to be the future village

thought it important to get as much density here as possible b/c next to village

spent least amt of time; liked the cmnty benefit idea of Area 6

v important b/c of proximity to future Village; probably will spend more time thinking about this area

spent a lot of time on HOUSING MIX

80% non sgl fam more than achieves OCP target of 60%, just thrilled with that

wrt multifam, 64 wch is a small percentage here are less than 1250 sq ft; asked ourselves, does this mix, where 20% of units are under 1250sf, look at the numbers, all the different degradations --  this is one area we spent a lot of time talking about

clearly aware of OCP, housing diversity, mix, housing varied in make-up

is it achieving desired result

BPP has taken the position that 524 units cd generate 1.83M sf, does that really represent how FAR shd be used to achieve OCP, social, economic, sustainability diversity/values

Work in progress so more work needs to be done on sustainability; Geri talked about that

we've been talking about sustainability in macro levels, shd micro

how can we assure plan is going to be followed; mechanisms put in place; thinking beyond the area

Other Rodgers Issues: want to talk about the Village; all look forward to this, this magnet -- live full life up top and not have to go down to the bottom

btw I live on the bottom, and we're okay on the bottom

2.5upa, some say gotta live with that; another planning group for that area, start thinking about a new approach for the village area

some of the learned mbrs, using units per acre as a measure for controlling a density isn't nec'ly best way to create nbrhds

look at how much devt on mountainside, whether units with FARs, or some other way

2.5upa as driving force isn't likely to get us the kinds of nbrhd we want to create

ask my colleagues to correct me or add anything I may of missed in terms of observations

Jak [Redenbach] has just come in, the only other mbr of WG

[now all WG mbrs present; that's right, his first name is Jak, no C]

Now's time to talk a bit

Ccl, gave you some openings there -- density, housing mix, we'd like to engage Ccl in; but open to talk about anything and everything wrt Rodgers

[some quips about being quick]

Sop: this format proving to be extremely successful, taking citizens for a period of time to help out cmnty

can't tell you enough, volunteers, work put in to make cmnty better

if we looked at the density, and in close proximity we have Taylor's Lookout, Village, and area not included, how do you get a handle on the overall density -- in close proximity, in relation to cmnty benefits, impact to taxpayer if it went ahead

what are the reqs of the M and what the owners' responsibility

MR: in Area 6, what way cmnty benefit, that direction?

Sop: if the area where you want to have a village, there are certain amenities that village is going to have to have

why not include that in impact

those amenities borne by whom? the taxpayer

one of the starting forces

MR: your wanting to have planning for village same as ours but that's not our responsibility

what do we have to do in this plan to facilitate and enhance a village in the next plan

we think the densities as well as some of the amenities will do that

when and if planning for the village, disc about amenities, housing mix,

sure Ccl will make sure provided by the dvpr and know they expect to have to

JF: Area 4 has highest number of sgl fam homes and the reason was the landowners; I'm unclear as to the justification for this

MR: that's how it appeared to us; fair to say that terrain wd allow for sgl fam

the more gentler the terrain the more opp for sgl fam; as terrain more difficult then sites for multifam

JF: so not just owners, terrain?

MR: both, think staff felt similarly

Brian Walker: take exception to that; BPP's been wonderful but resistance by two other landowners to get in sync with what we're trying to achieve

flattest land no question about that, but think ownership is dictating sgl fam

objection I have is that b/c we're constrained by these 500 or so lots, what you see on those five-acre parcels there for v big lots, p59 in Area 4; the footprint wrt the whole, while its 20% sgl fam lots, it's 40% of the land that's cleared and I think you're going to have a visual eyesore there

not even benefit of having small lots; $1K per sq ft, av size about 3500sf, you're already talking $3 - 4M a pop, not a diverse cmnty

Harold Kalke: it bumps up against 2.5upa and if that's a req of OCP then that area's doing its job

Frank Musson: I was hoping it (sgl fam) wd blend into the whole area plan

if you look at p32, midrise apt bldg, these are if you like controlled bldgs; theme has illustrations, architectural character as you progress from area to area but no demonstration of that at all in the sgl fam area

control, then what we see in Properties, then control again and some character again

no direction; unfortunate don't see continuity from Area 2 and 3 to 6

MR: asked owners if they were prepared same scheme as BPP and there seemed to be an interest in proceeding in that direction, but think we have to have more dialogue with them for us to get to that comfort level

HK: wrt form and character; we have a proponent here, IMO, with deepest experience building on steep slopes; been here since 1932 building on hillsides

as I look at old properties, and come across Chippendale experience, then look at Whitby Estates, you start to see learning curve, starting to go up

recognize today the av sgl fam owner, all multifam, is not simply cutting up lots and hiring architects; hiring contractors on time and on budget too much for ppl to bear; so throughout North America seeing developers building it themselves

BPP has said to us v clearly, they're going to build whatever they're going to build -- what you see on the plan is what they're going to build, and that gives us some assurance that wrt form and character perspective there will be that learning curve brought to bear, and they're also dedicated to fitting bldgs onto the site in an envmtally sensitive kind of way, visual kind of way.

I think that goes a long way to our WG to say thank God we have this proponent otherwise bldg by bldg, diff devpr, and have a mishmash

at that last mtg, Mike is correct, talk about character of entire site

JF: wrt upa as opposed to sq foot; interested in what your preference wd be?

what wd you hv suggested as a better way to go wrt planning?

JF: more efficient

HK: more density; but it's important for me to say as a dvpr, there's ways to put density together that fits and that doesn't fit; so not just density; it's how you do it

JF: and your goals

HK: and how to see form and character rules are embedded so don't fall away, by engg, suddenly curbs where there shdn't be; Design Panel with decks

MR: involved in OCP some years ago, and some memory left; makes sense from point of view, how can you have devt on hillside and still maintain greensize?

how much land needed to be put together for 70 to 80 units, substantial so greenness around it

diversity vs sustainability

not nec diversity but does get green sites

JF: OCP isn't a zoning document it's a vision, what they want to build; maybe the 2.5upa is a...

doesn't achieve our overall goals

JR: the question you've asked opens the door; how you do planning and receive proposals

broader without 2.5upa, comprehensive strategy, leave it up to proponent to come up with something, a good idea, and let them sell what they think is a really good proposal and then reviewed on its merits, achieving diversity, social/envtal sustainability

view OCP's imperative; if thinking of making amendments to OCP; fixed numbers come back to bite you; if numbers, tendency to go to max allowed and if you don't allow to go beyond, then stuck with it

be open-minded; not numbers of OCP, but philosophical concept

Mayor: a lot will look at view analysis; you said you were most excited with Area 5, wch has v low impact visually and perhaps offer the most diversity, no sgl fam in Area 5; you also said able to proceed earlier with 2 and 3 that still look fairly traditional and that Area 4 is 57% sgl fam, and almost looks like what we've been doing

as it moves across hillside, feel as if we're missing the potential that you start to achieve in Area 5, in Area 2, 3, and 4, but I don't know if that's fair

MR: Area 4 if not sgl fam cd be something else

our feeling was there shd be sgl fam; Frank's point is does it all have to be in one place

if you move west density increased

to be fair with BPP, we're not thinking great ideas without market conditions, aware of it, but it shdn't be market conditions dictate but shd be aware

JC: don't want to break up this trend, I'll wait

Mayor: I have more questions

Sop: I've got a ton, just wondering when I'm going to get a word in edgewise

{laughter}

MR: you'll get a chance

Mayor: can I ask my quick question?  I think Ccl is v concerned about what 2.5upa means -- gross area or buildable area?

Sop: gross buildable area

MR: do you want to try to answer that Geri?

GB: I'll defer to Stephen

SJN: gross area of site; it's a 200-acre site at 2.5upa

the concept, and this was devpd by the cmnty through the Upper Levels study

nature of the land generally wd dictate what cd be accommodated what form; if land such as above Mulgrave, pressure to sgl fam b/c anyone owning wd believe you'd be taking away value from them by compressing it

if they think they can get 12Ksf lots, ask them to build townhouses, they think they're losing value, they're not losing value b/c it depends on what Ccl approves but they think they're losing value

BPP has a lot of area not buildable for envmtal and topographical reasons, so that their units compressed into smaller area; they'll be smaller (townhouses, etc)

so planning process, what land can accommodate comfortably

2.5upa comes from 40 years ago, what wd be fair growth in the region

see what that looks like, that's okay with us

not nec'ly what you want to see today

Mayor:one last question, urban conferences

it's a huge responsibility to take a green mtnside and develop it

most go the other way, most about brown-field devts

to what extent did that weigh heavily on everybody

MR: someone else want to answer the question?

John Barker: happy to; Streamkeepers v happy with proposals by BPP

Streamkeepers put this together with a group of nine volunteers (the directors); b/c not tested or developed elsewhere, went to head of the Pacific Streamkeepers Federation in NV (she helped us quite a bit), went to our cmnty adviser for Fisheries (who helped us quite a bit), went to the Past Exec Director of the PSK, and your own Envmtal Coordinator, Steve Jenkins was v helpful

the main watercourses are being looked after, starting with at Marr Crk on east, Rodgers East, Rodgers Main, Rodgers West, you've got Pipe, Westmount, and Cave within the ADP

we can talk about intermittent streams and ephemerals -- big debate on that

walked that hillside after a major rain and it's just one big watercourse, so now into areas of risk and stormwater mgmt, and other areas

I think they've done an excellent job working their way through that

main thing in this plan is that we're talking about 210 acres, 57% undevpd, Streamkeepers wd interpret that as undisturbed; when actual detail rolls out we'll see, that's a critical semantic we're watching carefully

Julia: responsibility of developing this area; it did weight heavily on all of us

reason for discussion around Area 4; as you see, looks like clearcut, takes away building into forest -- huge big lots, one or two trees on each lot if we're lucky if we can require that, that's the real concern, we're not letting the hillside inform there

HK: having been raised in Alberta on a farm, you realize soil is light

while you see lovely piece of land; don't put where we grow our food; in my view, Richmond shdn't be there

in NAm see sprawl that shdn't be there; Calgary, Edmonton, enormous freeways, ring roads

have responsibility

if we can't put it in Amb and Dund; can't put in Langley doing on their own

Julia: wrt density, waiting for one of the cclrs to bring that up

Area 4 wrt envmtal and economic sustainability; already mentioned it but requires more detail

only 64 units under 1250sf and at $1K a sq ft means ppl in WV trying to stay here and young families with kids, our view wrt sustainability is not a $1.2M a sq ft apt, not many ppl, even downsizing, are going to be able to afford to move here

64 apts that size or less, my concern, strong views, if we're looking at diversity, not meeting that with the size of units we've got here

more units, smaller, that's the direction we shd be going

otherwise ppl coming in not ppl from WV, coming from outside, wch is fine but still have to try to main social diversity here; otherwise all our residents having to move out

creating village, create environments with shops and other amenities, can live there in old age and as young families; don't think we've got that yet.

JC: one of my points; v concerned about the village and echoing what you and Harold have said

if someone can convince me enough density and enough market up there

if building a village, don't care if 5, 50, or 500 stores, you'll be rivalling Caulfeild Village, essentially across the street -- not had a failure, closures through mismanagement or retirement -- but that has been v successful; to water down their market just for the sake of having a village up there

unless carefully thought through, don't think it will be a success; looking at more and more ppl throwing their savings away; don't want to be part of that

you mentioned the mtn path and you mentioned, Michael, shd rival seawalk; the seawalk has tremendous daily participation ...  the ppl who get to it generally drive

ppl come from wherever, access points, parking areas, where will they park -- ev wants to park as close as to where they want to go for a walk; makes no sense but that's what they do

Ms Boyle mentioned amenity bldgs -- not quite sure what they are, maybe a description, and mentioned mixed-use bldg, so is that the same as an amenity bldg or diff from?

and I have one other question

GB: one in Area 5 and one in 6: a cmnty ctr, space for programmed activities, maybe in assoc with M but privately owned; a cmnty ctr is the direction looking at

diff from Mulgrave area here wch has retail and office space

JC: we have one that's a success, how large? little red square? how do we keep them from having a life of their own,becoming a white elephant

GB: 5 and 6; about Stonecliffe has a cmnty amenity facility, don't know if you're familiar with that; put up by residents of the area, owned by them,

wrt Whitby and FAR, it's a v well-founded comment; taking quite a while for that space to be occupied; how long did it take?

Ans: three years

JC: dvpr talked about moving offices up there and didn't

GB: talked about that happening here as well, concerns well-founded, if we can turn our minds to those questions as to what wd happen

MR: understand where you're coming from

if you don't design at the beginning, may not be viable initially but will be in future as popn rose, you've lost an opportunity

have to be designed with some sort of flexibility; initially maybe not commercial but eventually; somebody wants to have commercial; have to be thinking future

JC: no problem with that but so many considerations before money or space to something of this nature; don't want to belabour it

Area 5, Ms Boyle, something about an exit road

GB: it has one point of access, right here

JC: where cursor is talking about an exit road

GB: don't have an exit road, terrain won't allow that happening

so connection called man access -- mtn pathway cd be accessed by firefighters

secondary route out

looking closely at design of road; one vehicle/two vehicles break down don't stop others from getting in/out; potential blockage points, next level of detail

MR: haven't said how long going on tonight

we've got about half an hour left; want to make sure all ccl mbrs and WG mbrs get a chance

know some have not, will let Sop speak then put up your hand

Sop: a couple of years ago, we as Ccl told them to go away; circles and dots wch they did do

the proponent of this devt has, in my view, been and has had a long history of concern for the envmt

this determined by the geography

agree with Streamkeepers, steep slopes and number of tributaries

think the proponent group with WG has sought out best

a bit of shortfall wrt anticipating complete cmnty b/c next area has not been considered

for complete commercial area that wd stop the N-S and produce E-W, considerable walkabout

I know driving to that in the next go-around; village combined with what we have here

feel not whole picture here; but look at generous areas left with, is it truly going to be WYSIWYG

all come down to [sound system and tape inaudible here]

if can only build in 40% what shd be our consideration from the taxpayers' benefit

what wd we as a Ccl expect from this area, from whole concept

whole hillside, v important question

consumed with other issues; appendix at end BPP has some

not that not aware, hasn't come up yet, will spend time

VV: pick up on that point, looking at p 66, says from prop taxes M shd be expected to receive $2.24M per year; remembering from our OCP at end of financial section, F2 heading, has that new devts must not impose costs on the existing cmnty

500 units, 1000 or more ppl, 2 - 300 more cars, still add up to a lot of expenses for the rest of the cmnty

we've had ppl who live on 15th and 21st Streets talking about the Upper Lands, and say build up there, complete cmnties so they don't come down overcrowd our streets and rec ctr

unlikely this size, 500 units looks clear to me not enough to support their own cmnty ctr

MR: reasonable point; wd like to think through this exercise staff wd provide a fiscal analysis of this plan

capital works provided by dvpr, but certainly mntnce side needs to be understood

on M level, pretty well known that maintenance costs for operating a municipality start to drop with density so one way to handle, much better rather than some kind of sprawling low-density devt; lots of case studies to support that

does that mean this devt is not going to cost the M any money? you need to do the fiscal impact; think it's going in the right direction

MS: late hour and to give public time for say, will be brief; think it's an interesting plan, food for thought

[much laughter]

MR: surprised taken this long! Easy answer is that's a detail

HK: virtual dogs

RD: been on Ccl most of time since 1986, greatest interest and one of my main reasons to run originally was to devp in a way sensitive to terrain and wch wd be acceptable from an envtal point of view and also for those of us who live below who have to look at the mountains as well as the sea

plsd with this plan; involves great progress, sensitive use of the land; preserves creeks, preserves most of forest, looks carefully after drainage, envtal sensitive areas, viewpoints

we've made a lot of progress, social sustainability, and things of that sort

plsd to have been on this Cmte, done marvellous job

fortunate to have almost a sgl owner, who does have experience in mountainside devt and is using this experience in a sensitive way. Now clear the way for public questions.

MR: anyone want to add anything?

JF: this WG done an excellent job; huge help; excited about where we can go from here

MR: v small amt of work compared with BPP and your staff; truly a collaborative exercise; we're done turn it back to Pam

Mayor: any comments, first of all from general public, I know many here tonight with private (owners)

Mayor: Well represented by the WG I gather than.  Any other comments by anyone in the gallery.  Seeing none, I too wd like to thank you for your participation

WGs have become the norm; never been this open; excellent beginning; hope this evening serves as a catalyst for the public's interest b/c that's what we all rely on

thank you for taking part; taken a lot of ppl to get to this

Sop: where do we go from here? how many more times to meet? when will final come to us?

RD: next mtg I think scheduled Nov 15 and possibly public 27, right Geri?

GB: still finalizing the dates

RD: from there try to sort out some details; WG will make recommendations

will be up to Ccl to make final decisions re density, social sustainability and things of that sort

WG has come a long way with this plan -- public can see this plan drawn up by BPP, if they go to the Planning Dept.  In preparation for public mtg, public can inform themselves, remember our mtgs are open, and the mtg Nov 15 is open as are all.

Mayor: we're adjourned

5.    ADJOURNMENT  8:56   {See Calendar above -- next mtg changed to Nov 8}

CALL TO ORDER

1.  APPROVAL OF AGENDA

2.  ADOPTION OF MINUTES: Oct 15 and 22

DELEGATIONS

4.         S. Isaac, regarding Existing Bylaws Pertaining to Bed & Breakfast Accommodations         Presentation by Western Community Services Society (formerly "Eagle Harbour Community Services Society") regarding Spacenet Play Equipment, Gleneagles Community Centre

REPORTS

RECOMMENDED THAT Council consider the following deferred motion of October 01, 2007:

            "THAT Council write to the British Columbia Electoral Boundaries Commission opposing any increase in the number of Members of the Legislative Assembly in the Province of British Columbia."

RECOMMENDED:... report ... from the Deputy Director, Parks and Community Services be received for information.

RECOMMENDED: ...report from the Deputy Director of Parks and Community Services be received.

CONSENT AGENDA ITEMS

9.         Consent Agenda Items - Reports and Correspondence List

Item 10 - Development Variance Permit Application No. 07-037 (866 20th Street) (to set date for consideration); and Item 11 - Correspondence List.

REPORTS FOR CONSENT AGENDA

10.       Development Variance Permit Application No. 07-037 (866 20th Street)

RECOMMENDED: ... for consideration on Monday, November 19, 2007.

(6)       R. Barr, Hugo Ray Park Area Residents Group, October 19, 2007, regarding Meeting with Mayor Goldsmith-Jones and Hugo Ray Park Residents

Referred to the Director of Parks & Community Services for consideration and response.

(16)     B.A. Dozzi, Manager - Roads & Transportation, October 11, 2007, regarding General Letter to Residents/Business Owners re Dundarave Parking and Traffic Plan - Implementation

 

12.  REPORTS FROM MAYOR/COUNCILLORS

13. PUBLIC QUESTIONS/COMMENTS  14. ADJOURNMENT

        Are you perplexed and puzzled by acronyms?

        Do you feel reading WVM is like eating soup with a slotted spoon?

Let's start with Ccl (Council), cclrs (councillors): JC = John Clark; RD = Rod Day; JF = Jeanie Ferguson; MS = Mike Smith; Sop = Bi= ll Soprovich; VV = Vivian Vaughan.

MMgr (Municipal Manager) -> CAO (Chief Administrative Officer) = Dave Stuart (till the end of the year)

DoAS (Director of Administrative Services) -> RB = Rick Beauchamp; MClk (Municipal Clerk) -> SSch = Sheila Scholes

Dir/Finance -> RL = Richard Laing; Dir/Planning -> SJN = Steve Nicholls; Dir/Parks -> KP = Kevin Pike

Dir/Engg (Engineering) -> EB = Emil Barth (on sick leave so Brent Dozzi or Raymond Fung attend the ccl mtg)

AFAIK = As Far As I Know; btw = by the way

BPP = British Pacific Properties -- bought almost all the land west of Capilano River in 1930s for $75,000

DWV = District of West Vancouver; M = Municipal; NS or NSh = North Shore; DVP = Development Variance Permit

FAR = Floor Area Ratio, sometimes FSR = Floor Space Ratio; FWIW = For What It's Worth

IMO = In My Opinion; IMVHO (very humble); IOW = In Other Words; OTOH = On the Other Hand

PH = Public Hearing

RAR = Riparian Area Regulations (provincial); ROW = Right of Way

sf = square feet; upa = units per acre

WG = Working Group; wrt = with regard/reference to; WYSIWYG = What You See Is What You Get

........any more you're wondering about???

Further to the Heritage Alert.

Some of you have already asked what can be done so shall provide background and status first.  Thank you for all those responses on a Saturday afternoon!  It was welcome news to someone ill in bed fighting off the flu!

My personal line at the office is 922 4400 and you can tell reception it is about the Erickson house or leave a msg.

The good news is that the residence was on the Heritage WG agenda on Thursday, listed as a primary heritage resource with an application for a demolition permit, so at least it has come to our attention.

Staff reported the off-shore owner speaks Cantonese so not possible to speak to them, and the architect hired is Poskitt and staff spoke to them.  IMO, highly unlikely an architectural firm hired to build a house will be enthusiastic about relaying messages about the importance of keeping a house they've been hired to build a replacement for.  One Reader kindly provided the photo below so you can see this exceptional house built on a lot dismissed as unbuildable.  That surely was a challenge to Erickson -- he always fits his creations into the landscape -- and no surprise this home has received national attention.

Two other photos show the spectacular view as well at http://www.arthurerickson.com/H_grah.html

As I said, a gem.

I've requested the background and the prestige of the house be relayed to the owner who possibly is unaware.  As you know, we are often dismissed as without or with little culture assuming we're so new; once ppl are made aware, however, there is the possibility of some sort of preservation, recognition, or whatever.

FYI, I'm chair of the just-established 'incentives' subcmte of the HWG.  My position is that the Registry might be nice (that's what the HWG's main purpose is supposed to be), but without awareness and advocacy supported by incentives, it will be to little avail.  Ppl must find out about what we treasure and value in our cmnty.  Then they must be encouraged and see heritage as a positive, and look forward.  It doesn't mean nothing can be touched -- additions and alterations as long as in keeping with the style (and not a box carbuncle, unless it's a box house in the first place) are fine, plus we must have incentives for maintenance or retention -- density transfers, tax relief (Victoria will match funds in tax reductions), etc.  Any ideas you have that you think wd contribute toward the celebration of our heritage are most welcome (write to carolanne@heritage.westvan.org) and we can let you know about mtgs so you can attend and contribute directly in person!

Anyway, IMHO, the good news is that it came to the HWG, so things are getting better.  Still, I will ask for it even earlier -- the earliest possible since time was lost waiting until the HWG mtg.

Next step, as I'd suggested earlier, we must make sure ALL departments have the heritage inventory we have at present and in particular the Planning and Building Depts alert the Heritage staff and groups as soon as something on the list is under consideration -- devt, subdivision, alteration, demolition.

Back to the Erickson House.  Wd AIBC be interested? the UBC School of Architecture? Trevor Boddy who used to write for the VSun?  the newspapers?  Let's get the word out.  Let's use respect and the carrot to inform the owner of how much this house means to BC and to Canada and how prestigious it is to own it.

You've seen some haiku and maiku; here's a tanka (5-7-5-7-7), another Japanese form of poetry.  I wrote a couple of maiku/haiku on Oct 21st and then it turned into a tanka.  It kept on raining :-)......  My, but the monsoon season started early this year!

To a poet, silence is an acceptable response, even a flattering one.

                        -- Colette, author (1873 - 1954)

Uttering a word is like striking a note on the keyboard of the imagination.

                        -- Ludwig Wittgenstein, philosopher (1889 - 1951)

The quality of our thoughts is bordered on all sides by our facility with language.

                        -- J. Michael Straczynski, author (b.1954)

Because we don't understand the brain very well we're constantly tempted to use the latest technology as a model for trying to understand it. In my childhood we were always assured that the brain was a telephone switchboard. (What else could it be?) And I was amused to see that Sherrington, the great British neuroscientist, thought that the brain worked like a telegraph system. Freud often compared the brain to hydraulic and electromagnetic systems. Leibniz compared it to a mill, and now, obviously, the metaphor is the digital computer.

                        -- John R. Searle, philosophy professor (1932 - )

There is not such a cradle of democracy upon the earth as the Free Public Library, this republic of letters, where neither rank, office, nor wealth receives the slightest consideration.

                -- Andrew Carnegie, industrialist (1835 - 1919)

On October 28, 1903, Evelyn Waugh was born in London.  In 1928, a London Times review of his first novel, "Decline and Fall" made frequent reference to "Miss Waugh", leading the author to shoot off a letter to the editor in protest.  After writing many satirical novels before WWII, he began writing more serious post-war works, notably "Brideshead Revisited" in 1945 (it was made into a successful television series in 1981).  In his twenties, Waugh was brash and irreverent.  After converting to Roman Catholicism in 1930, he mellowed considerably, but remnants of his earlier personality remained.  While attending a dinner party at writer Nancy Mitford's Paris home, Waugh behaved very rudely toward a French writer. Mitford, appalled by the boorish behavior of her friend, asked Waugh how he could be so cruel and still consider himself a practising Catholic.  He replied:

     "You have no idea how much nastier I would be if I [were] not a Catholic.

      Without supernatural aid, I would hardly be a human being."

Flattery is like chewing gum. Enjoy it but don't swallow it.

                        -- Hank Ketcham, comic artist (1920 - 2001)

Of course you can subscribe by going to the website www.westvan.org but you can also write to subscribewvm@westvan.org to receive West Van Matters as soon as it comes out by getting the email broadcast.  (Updates/Notices also sent out.)  Later the newsletter is put on the website and a limited number of copies are printed and distributed.  If you pick up printed copies, the average cost is $2 so consider defraying costs!  If you have news/information, a comment, or corrections, pls write to info@westvan.org or comments@westvan.org as they are most welcome.