Apr 7/10 Ccl Mtg NOTES
Calendar to April 27

by Carolanne Reynolds, Editor

Spring is bursting out all over!  See Gardenwatch below and plant flowers.  Spring haiku at end -- sakura.
***  2008 BUDGET  ***
Adoption of the budget is on the agenda for Apr 14th.   Cclr V was absent and Cclr Smith ascertained that comment and changes can still be made (confirmed by RB).  The legislative deadline is May 15th.  Please read the budget discussion (Apr 7 NOTES p7 - 25, 28, 29): Mayor's good introduction; thoughtful even helpful comments by public; then Ccl's debate with Sop's plea for info and time: and Clark's roar out of the gate!  Some remarks you will note show some mbrs of Ccl had their ear flaps closed; staff bravely try to outline the process only to reveal much of the budget deliberations have been done behind closed doors.  Anyway, I set off Item 6, the budget, with *** so you can just read that or read it first; there are then some budget reflections responding to Ccl at PQP (end of Ccl Mtg notes) b/c public not allowed to speak after Ccl starts.  Happy reading!
They're talking about your money!

Main Items Apr 14th: RODGERS Crk DEVT PLAN (info to be provided!); Fire Dept Shared Services and Fire & Rescue WG report; Old Growth Conservancy Strategy for Protection; Apr 16 sp ccl mtg moved to May 1; FINANCIAL INFORMATION ACT REPORT (2007 Salaries and Expenses; can see on website); Five-Yr Financial Plan (Budget 2008) for Adoption -- NB: Public comment welcomed
Vive le Canada; from the EDITOR'S DESK (Salary info av; M prop list provided); GARDENWATCH; ANIMALWATCH; CULTUREWATCH; UPDATES (MDr Gateway, Rodgers Crk Devt Plan, Waste Mgmt); NEWSWATCH (Zimbabwe; Discrimination against Women)
=  CALENDAR to Apr 27th (check for changes and updates)
=  Apr 7th Ccl Mtg NOTES: Cdn Mental Health; MS Walk; Four Evelyn Dr Devt Permits for cluster housing, aptmts, townhomes; Five-Yr Financial Plan Bylaw (incredibly it says "info to be provided" -- explanation??? first reading Mar 17th, now for second reading and info not yet available after no ccl mtg for three weeks???); Greenbelt Amendments Caulfeild Plateau; Apptmts: NSh Adv Cmte on Disability Issues, Approving Officer and Deputy Approving Officers; Devt Applications Status List; PQP has four speakers (Budget was third)
=  Apr 10th BRIEF NOTES Rodgers Crk Ccl Workshop (375 units allowed in current zoning, 736 proposed; what are the Cmnty Benefits?  didn't even have them when I asked at mtg!)
=  Apr 14th Ccl Agenda (Click on link Item 7 to get 2007 Remuneration Report)
=  Update on Hebron Orphanage; BOOKWATCH (Benazir); What's butt dust?; Politi-ku; Haiku; Quotations

=== Vive le Canada ===  1958 April 5  Ripple Rock
        the largest planned peacetime explosion and the first live coast to coast news broadcast by CBC.
..... from the EDITOR'S DESK
*  SALARIES --  See the 2007 Remuneration and Expense Account (Item 7 on the Apr 14th Agenda)  on the DWV website.  Was fascinated to see that although the report is due to prov June 30, the FIA regulations say the public can have them on request.  Fascinating b/c in the past we've always been told we cdn't get them until after given to prov June 30.
*  DWV PROPERTY -- A BIG THANK YOU to Emil Barth, Dir/Engg, for Inventory List of M-owned property.
*  Both thanks and appreciation to Cclrs Clark and Sop (and am sure Cclr V will be of like mind) -- more info, some time for review -- for urging information be provided and time to evaluate to see what can be done.  Maybe the Mayor's heart will soften to welcome any ideas public may have.  If nothing worthwhile, then it's a pity, but at least an effort was made.
===   GARDENWATCH   ===
Click and get a blank page.  Click your mouse anywhere (& everywhere) on the page & see what happens!  Better yet, click & drag your mouse over the blank page... Enjoy!! http://www.procreo.jp/labo/flower_garden.swf
===   ANIMALWATCH   ===
This  video is about a homeless man in Santa Barbara and his pets. They work State Street every week for donations.  The animals seem well fed and are mellow.  They are a family.  
The man who owns them rigged a harness for his cat so she wouldn't have to walk so much (like the dog and himself).  
At some juncture the rat came along, and as no one wanted to eat anyone else, the rat started riding with the cat and often, on the cat.  The dog will stand all day and let you talk to him and admire him for a few chin scratches.
The mayor of Santa Barbara filmed this clip and sent it out as a Christmas card.  
Wouldn't it be wonderful if humans could behave like this???
Click the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D85yrIgA4Nk&feature=related
===   CULTUREWATCH   ===
Little bit behind.  Went to PEN talk.
Sorry if I didn't mention "Humble Boy" on NShore, a somewhat related adaptation of Hamlet.   We didn't go b/c we'd seen it in London a few years ago.  "MacHomer" is on now and so is another version of "Romeo and Juliet".
We saw "I love you, you're perfect, now change" in New York a couple of years ago and it was funny, if you want to see a comedy.  If you're married, you know exactly what it's about.
===   UPDATES   ===
>  Marine Drive Gateway Project
April Project Update - Landscaping
Over the next few weeks much of the vegetation (bushes and trees) along the south slope of Marine Drive will be removed.  The remaining vegetation has been flagged with blue tape.
This work is an element of the project designed to allow for:
        *       Removal of overgrowth
   *       Removal of the existing concrete benches embedded in the slope
  *       Removal of the existing sidewalk
        *       Construction of a new sidewalk at the foot of the slope with associated ramp
    *       Installation of ornamental lighting
        *       Installation of trees and landscaping to coordinate with that being installed in the
                new median and north boulevard
March Project Update - Storm Sewer Works
Storm sewer works are nearing completion, and should be completed by mid-April.
{background on the whole project was in the previous WVM}
> Rodgers Creek Area Plan -- http://www.westvancouver.ca/article.asp?a=5181&c=1024
The Official Community Plan requires an Area Development Plan for the Rodgers Creek Area of the Upper Lands prior to development taking place. The proposed plan submitted by the property owners was prepared under the direction of the Rodgers Creek Working Group and District staff. On April 10th 2008 Council will learn about the proposed plan including the traffic and fiscal impacts of the development. On April 14th 2008 Council will determine whether the proposed plan should proceed forward to implementation bylaws.
The proposed plan, the Working Group report on the proposal and background information and studies are available for viewing by clicking on the item:
1. The Rodgers Creek Area Development Plan, Overview Report (March 7, 2008)
2. Rodgers Creek Area Plan Working Group Report (March 11, 2008)
3. Staff Report (March 10, 2008) outlining next steps in the review of the proposed plan
The draft Area Development Plan can also be viewed at the Planning Department counter, Municipal Hall.
For more information, please call the Planning Department at 604-925-7055.
>  Metro Vancouver Public Consultation meeting on Waste Management
Metro Vancouver will be holding public meetings to invite comments on the strategies for updating the Liquid Waste and Solid Waste Management Plans.
North Shore Meeting: Tuesday, April 22 Sportsplex at Capilano College 2055 Purcell Way, NV
Registration will begin at 6:00 p.m. and the meeting will be from 6:30 - 9:00 p.m.
In the first half of the meeting, Metro Vancouver staff will introduce and explain the strategies for the LWMP, followed by a break. The second half will focus on the SWMP strategies. Following each presentation, participants will be invited to ask questions and provide input.
This phase of consultation will build on progress made to date through working relationships with member municipalities and residents in the community who have a specific interest in issues related to liquid and solid waste management.
Further information on the public consultation program and copies of the strategies are available on the Metro Vancouver web site at:  www.metrovancouver.org/managementplans
===   NEWSWATCH   ===
+  2008 April 4  Zimbabwe's inflation rate passed 155,000%
+  BBC News item: Women are discriminated against in almost every country worldwide, a UN-commissioned report says.
Page last updated at 01:16 GMT, Saturday, 5 April 2008 02:16 UK
Women face bias worldwide - UN
The report says that 70% of the world's poor are women
Women are discriminated against in almost every country around the world, a UN-commissioned report says.
It says that this is despite the fact that 185 UN member states pledged to outlaw laws favouring men by 2005.  It adds that 70% of the world's poor are women and they own just 1% of the world's titled land. The report, which was prepared for UN Human Right Commissioner Louise Arbour, says rape within marriage has still not been made a crime in 53 nations.
Life-long violation, for more:

===  CALENDAR to Apr 27th  === [at Hall unless otherwise noted; pls confirm to make sure no changes]
== Tues 15th
~ 6:30pm ~ Cmnty Dialogue WG (tentative date, pls confirm)
~ 7:30pm ~ WRA AGM at St Monica's Hall (6404 Wellington)
A short presentation by Parks & Cmnty Services on plans for the Great Hall, followed by
Key Speaker: Chief Constable Kash Heed
North Shore Integrated Police Services and policing issues specific to the western part of the District.  Chief Heed will also answer general questions about policing.

== Wed April 16th - BUSY!!!

~ 7:30 ~  WV Chamber of Commerce Breakfast at Hollyburn Country Club (950 Crosscreek)
Speaker:    Mark Angelo, Program Head, Fish, Wildlife, Recreation Dept., BCIT 
The Coho Society's guest speaker is a person of great commitment to the environment.  Mark Angelo has been on the Pacific Fisheries Resource Conservation Council for ten years and is now Deputy Chair of that organization.  Through his passion, enthusiasm, and knowledge, he has inspired many others to take action to help protect the ecosystems that fish and wildlife rely upon.  Mark has paddled many of the rivers of the world and shares a valuable global perspective on the issues.  He leads by example and in his role at BCIT has inspired countless students to become champions of fish and wildlife.  He started Rivers Day in 1980, which has become an amazingly popular worldwide event.  Mark's presentation will also touch on his experience in Antarctica and is bound to be both thought-provoking and inspiring.
Please go to www.westvanchamber.com to reserve; Mbrs $25 / Non-Mbrs $35 (GST Included)

~ 9am ~ SPECIAL CCL MTG  -- motion to CANCEL at Apr 14 ccl mtg, move to 10am May 1st
~ 5pm ~ Heritage WG (cclr mtg ofc)
~ 6:30pm ~ Child Care WG
~ 7pm ~ Library Board at the Library; the Bd of Variance in Ccl Chambers.
~ at SFU Harbourside: Paul Hawken Speaks in Vancouver - April 16
Open to the public. Register today! http://www.cascadiagbc.org/news/paul-hawken-speaks-in-vancouver-bc-april-16
How the largest social movement in history is restoring grace, justice and beauty to the world
== Thurs April 17th   ~ 6pm ~
        ~ NSh Family Court/Youth Justice Cmte at DNV M Hall
        ~ Cmnty Ctr Bd of Directors at Srs' Ctr
== WEEK April 19th - 26th:  North Shore Writers Festival in North Shore Libraries
== Sat April 19th
The Adopt-a-Fish Event is held in Memorial Park in conjunction with Coho Society of the North Shore and with assistance from West Vancouver Memorial Library on Saturday April 19th from 10am to 1pm. Everyone is welcome to this family event.

== Sun April 20th ~ 10am - 3pm ~ Earth Day & Outdoor Celebration at Gleneagles Cmnty Ctr

== Tues April 22nd
~ 6pm ~ Metro Vancouver Public Consultation meeting on Waste Management
Metro Vancouver will be holding public meetings to invite comments on the strategies for updating the Liquid Waste and Solid Waste Management Plans.
North Shore Meeting: Sportsplex at Capilano College, 2055 Purcell Way, North Vancouver
Registration will begin at 6:00 p.m. and the meeting will be from 6:30 - 9:00 p.m.
In the first half of the meeting, Metro Vancouver staff will introduce and explain the strategies for the LWMP, followed by a break. The second half will focus on the SWMP strategies. Following each presentation, participants will be invited to ask questions and provide input.
This phase of consultation will build on progress made to date through working relationships with member municipalities and residents in the community who have a specific interest in issues related to liquid and solid waste management.  Further information on the public consultation program and copies of the strategies are available on the Metro Vancouver web site at: www.metrovancouver.org/managementplans

== Wed April 23rd ~ 5pm ~ Finance Cmte [Peters Room in Library]
OR you might want to go to the Chamber's Showcase from 5 - 7pm at Cafe Trafiq
Free but RSVP to Chamber required for appetizer preparation (926 6614)
== Thurs April 24th
        ~ 4 - 10pm ~ YPAC Family Carnival in Ambleside Park (also 25th, 26th, 27th)
        ~ 4:30pm ~ Design Review Cmte
        ~ 5pm ~ NSACDI at DNV M Hall
        ~ 5:30pm ~ Police Bd Mtg in Police Dept Boardroom
== Fri April 25th
        ~ 4 - 11pm ~ YPAC Family Carnival in Ambleside Park    
        ~ 4pm ~ Fire & Rescue WG (check to see if mtg still on after reporting to Ccl)
== Sat April 26th
        ~ 4 - 11pm ~ YPAC Family Carnival in Ambleside Park    
== Sun April 27th
        ~ 10am - noon ~ Super Cities WALK/Run for MS in Ambleside Park 
        ~ 4 - 11pm ~ YPAC Family Carnival in Ambleside Park    

+++  WV MEMORIAL LIBRARY +++ see www.westvanlib.org
> Wednesday 16 -- Slide Show: Greek Islands & the Mediterranean Coast of Turkey
Join world travellers, photographers and lecturers David & Anna Smith as they share one of their "Excellent Adventures". Active and armchair travellers will enjoy this fun and eclectic afternoon. 1:30-3 pm, Peters Room.
> Saturday 19 -- Adopt-A-Fish Family Event
The Coho Society of the North Shore and the West Vancouver Streamkeepers invite you to release a salmon into McDonald Creek. Meet at the entrance to the Library Saturday,10am - 12:30pm.
*** North Shore Writers Festival starts Apr 20: See Festival Website.
Writer-in-Residence: Michael Thoma. To book a session (10am - 4pm) call 925-7402.
Monday 21 -- Spinning Stories: Mary Novik, Jen Sookfong Lee & June Hutton. 7:30pm; Peters Room.
> Tuesday 22 -- Earth Day -- Take a look at our Displays!
> Wednesday 23 -- Travel Photography Tips & Techniques
David Smith will share tips, techniques & adventure stories. Bring your camera & manual. David will cover the use of point-and-shoot & SLR cameras, as well as ways to share your travel images.  7:30 - 9pm; Peters Room.
> Thursday 24  Justice in The Hague: the War Crimes Trials of Slobodan Milosevic & Charles Taylor
Hear Iain Reid, Case Manager of the UN International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. 7:30pm; Peters Room.
> Friday 25
*** North Shore Writers Festival Event
Laughing at Ourselves: Arthur Black & Mike McCardell. 1:30pm; Peters Room. Festival Website.
-- Philosopher's Cafe: Are our individual environmental steps worthwhile?
With Earth Day just having been held, is it a suitable time to look at what our individual actions can do to support and sustain the Earth? $5 admission. 10:30am - 12:30pm, Peters Room.
+++ FERRY BUILDING GALLERY  "The Artists' Salon" -- mixed media; Apr 8 - 20
Group exhibition of artists from Arts Connection Networking Salon

+++ SILK PURSE (1570 Argyle) www.silkpurse.ca
April 15 - 27, 2008  "Hand-Hooked Rugs - the Journey Begins"
Rug hooking and carpet weaving is an essential part of Persian art and culture dates back to the ancient Persia but has a long history in Canada. This fiber art exhibit represents the work of over 20 talented Vancouver Rug Hookers who live around the Lower Mainland. It is a collection of hooked rugs, with a harmonious blend of art and function that reflect both creative passion and personal expression celebrating the past and inspired by life experiences.
Opening Reception: TUESDAY April 15th from 6-8 pm
                Free Rug Hooking Demo: Saturday, April 19th from 12- 4 pm

+++  WV MUSEUM +++  Duncan McNab: Modern In Sight -- to May 31
Wednesday, April 16, 7-8:30pm
Topic: Buildings, Communities and Cities: Reaching for Zero Carbon Solutions

Guest Speaker: Veronica Gillies, MRAIC, MAIBC, LEED=AE AP, Busby Perkins +WILL
Cities are the key to successfully achieving a sustainable future for everyone. Cities provide utility services but also through zoning regulation density and land use provide transit and roads, and through bylaws regulate building design and construction. Community action within cities will act as the catalyst for zero carbon solutions. The scale of communities makes them an ideal catalyst for the types of synergies required for deep green solutions to our energy and carbon emissions challenges. The presentation will take an in-depth look at sustainable buildings; buildings at the community level and cities to address their impact on climate change.
Cdn't reach it through DWV website, but more at: http://www.westvanmuseum.blogspot.com/

 +++ Don't forget to check out www.kaymeekcentre.com +++

===   COUNCIL NOTES  Apr 7th   ===  Cclr Vaughan ABSENT
Changes: adding correspondence, BUDGET Bylaw Amendment, letters re budget, Item 3
2.  ADOPTION OF MINUTES: March 10 Special Council Mtg; March 17 Regular Council Mtg DONE
3.  K. Green, Cdn Mental Health Assn (CMHA), re Achieve Employment Program  WITHDRAWN
4.         M. Lenzen, Multiple Sclerosis (MS) Society of Canada, re Northshore Super Cities WALK for MS
RECOMMENDED: THAT Council thanks [sic] M. Lenzen, Chairman -- Northshore Super Cities WALK for MS, regarding the WALK for MS on April 27 at Ambleside Park.
ML: we have one of the best walk sites in Canada
in answer to Sop's question, MS is a disease and the source is still unknown.
5.         Evelyn Drive Development Permits:  No. 07-055 (950 Keith Road);
            No. 07-056 (880 Keith Rd); No. 07-057 (880 Evelyn Drive); and No. 07-058 (800 Evelyn Dr)
At the March 10 mtg, Council received the report dated Feb 29 from the Manager of Community Planning for the first four buildings in proposed Phase 1 Devt (880 and 950 Keith Rd; 800 and 880 Evelyn Dr.) Attachments to the Devt Permits are available for viewing in the Legislative Services Dept.  Presentation to be provided by Planning Staff; Presentation to be provided by the Applicant
Geri Boyle: staff will give an overview
the four DPs represent phase one of the project: it involves two cluster bldgs and two apt bldgs
reviewed project in terms of overall master plan
the proposal is consistent with the master plan but some minor inconsistencies but still within the zoning.
the village walk and the Evelyn walk hv become more interesting and desirable elements
project shd be a showcase; sustainability, target of LEED goal silver and Ccl encourages gold, applicant has achieved 36 points of the 38 for top of silver
some measures: harvesting of rainwater, car cooperative, energy efficient appliances
plan on privately owned geothermal system for all concrete bldgs
will but project on map and WV
cluster bldgs within slope, not exposed except for top -- no points for that but important
[slide of cluster bldgs]
frontages on Keith Rd, low profile adjacent to KRd
v steep site, one bldg has a walkway between it
apt bldgs on Ev Dr, south side of the street, elevation, low profile; courtyard on south side
townhouses front street
bldgs v similar, differences response to ground conditions [slides]
treed blvd; onstreet parking spaces, pervious surfaces shd I say, as pioneered up in British Properties
Ev Dr cul-de-sac, retaining walls; new Village Walk Ev down to Pk Royal and up to KRd
walkway next to owner not part of devt/project
looking for something not formal, to capture WV character
will be a sidewalk on south side of KRd
walkway in master plan, now worked to make it accessible to all so goes back and forth -- a long walk, a power walk; good accessibility
resubdivision of the land -- working with applicant on that now; will be a road closure and road rededication -- all will have to come before Ccl; will bring this spring
been working on density amenities
detailed report on universal accessible housing; will discuss that with you at that time
the entire devpr team and the devpr present
Mayor: presentation by applicant?
GB: we thought we'd leave it to this first; here to answer questions
JF: question wrt access; says devpr 100% to meet prov standards
GB: Walter Frankel architect on the apt bldg
WF: we are proposing all the cluster and apt bldgs meet the 'safer' home
not to distinguish between so no handicapped sticker differentiating an accessible from an inaccessible
desire to make suites as adaptable as possible
you can do some things that meet but then find a special need for someone
they will have wider corridors, etc., but what distinguishes these is they're easy to adapt, to customize, and then to re-adapt
can be converted to conventional so maximum flexibility so doesn't 'blackmark' any -- we've had approval from your Disability Cmte and quite proud
MS: one thing we asked was that there be a traffic calming study for ingress and egress safe and done in proper manner
GB: there is a traffic study that has to be done; the dvpr will be doing it, they provide $350K for the study and the measures -- that money has not been received yet
MS: Mr Malek is here, you might want to talk to him before you leave
Mayor: this is a major point
GB: the first aspect of traffic mgmt, beyond traffic calming, is the roundabout where Esquimalt comes down; at time of study we weren't sure what the solution wd be, traffic lights, or.... found it was possible to have an roundabout where Keith Rd meets Ev Dr.
instead of straight, a roundabout
JC: earlier on, discussion of traffic, westerly down to Pk Royal, decision?
GB: don't have info on that, perhaps Dir/Engg
EB: you're referring to extending lane to relieve stress; that's part of a larger piece of work, working with TransLink about a wider, and working with Ministry...
hope to provide you with that info later
JC: so that item's been removed?
EB: maybe contributing to as a public amenity
Mayor: still not quite clear; know Millennium keen to rough in roads
how will public come to understand?
GB: the roughing in of the roads is all based on the zoning put in place
our securities ensuring these things happen are under subdivision approval
engg drawings pretty well approved right now
another aspect of traffic mgmt is the whole construction process; right now no bldgs
we'll start to get ppl living there
there's traffic mgmt plan for work going on now and obligation to update plan as it goes along, reassessment of plan
Mayor: only one person on sheet
M Miyagi (sp?): live v close; the WV bylaw says allowed to build up to 15ft above
GB: yes, bldgs don't go beyond that
MM: the trees I see in the picture -- are they what we see?  there? will be added later?
what happens to trees?
GB: there are some trees on site that will be retained and some planted
MM: how high will these trees be?
Peter Kreuk, Landscape Architect: still selecting, but conscious of views; those closer shorter than those deeper on the site
idea is that these buildings grow out of the landscape so objective to plant well, make sure not going to 200ft in height
MM: we have noticed that construction has bn going on at night, middle of night, will this continue?  Some days like earthquakes; working in middle of night and ppl have chn, ppl wondering how long this is going on; two years?
GB: not aware of construction activity on the site at night; that was drawn to our attention and our bylaw ppl have been out but not aware
someone suggested may be storm sewer
hours were flagged at mtg last week
Mayor: what are they?
ANS: 7:30 to 5pm
GB: certainly middle of night is not an approved time
{ALL Received for information}
Mayor: commend applicant on commitment to sustainability
continue to aim high, that's where WV wants to go
retention of water? ticked off in one box but not another
ANS: intention is to harvest rainwater for irrigation
RD: devt been thoroughly examined by Design Panel, 4:30 to 10
examined; good from sustainability point of view but also design and aesthetic
an area we're just beginning to understand, building on hillside, slope

{excuse me? perhaps needs a bit of clarification.  WV architects slow learners?  didn't notice we have a hillside?  don't know how to build on slopes?  Anybody been to Switzerland?  Maybe he means we're just learning to respect the hillsides and to protect the creeks, b/c this has paid a bit more attention to the environment.}

[In each case below submissions received, Ccl can ask for a staff report or that the Devt Permit be issued subject to filing at the Land Title Office to create the parcel shown on attached plan]
o  Development Permit Application No. 07-055 (950 Keith Road)
                Staff report or Devt Permit for 12 cluster housing units
o  Development Permit Application No. 07-056 (880 Keith Road)
                Staff report or Devt Permit for 26 cluster housing units
o  Development Permit Application No. 07-057 (880 Evelyn Drive)
                Staff report or Devt Permit for 67 apartment units and four town homes
o  Development Permit Application No. 07-058 (800 Evelyn Drive)
                Staff report or Devt Permit for 62 apartment units and five town homes

6.  [Five-]Year Financial Plan Bylaw No. 4549, 2008
This bylaw received first reading at March 17 Ccl Mtg. -- Information to be provided.
{WHY NOT AVAILABLE? or wait till public has had a chance to see and review it, let alone Ccl!}
Mayor: Amendment to Financial Plan and then Budget
WV chose not to have industry and limited commercial base in 1920s, and rely on residents; we pay ~40% higher b/c of this
low density over long geog area, but then WVFD four firehalls, not one so $5M over NV
we have about 110 more FTEs than the two NVs on per capita basis
we have about 45 add'l firefighters, 35 Police; 30 add'l staff in Library and Srs' Ctr, high approval ratings, ~96% so that's where we have more staff
compensation; our directors all make less than NV
wage 3% and non-union compensation is tracked with that
we have, by policy, pay average plus 2%; something we can look at but that's what it is right now
in evaluating our budget it's important to look not just at the gross cost but the revenue offset
In Engg and Transportation Expenditures has increased by 10% to $327K but it includes $187K of maintenance costs fully reimbursed by GVTA
wrt rec progs, we have moved on the recommendation of the FSTF and Finance Cmte, from 65% to 80% recovery rate, that is the highest in the region, problem is demand
b/c Hollyburn pool closed we have a whole lot of chn wanting
ppl want to see greater capacity, offset commensurate revenue
tax rate increase; absolutely true our 1% isn't same as other cmnties
2000 to 2008, av has been 2.49%, past two years second lowest in region; 3.5% third lowest in region, second only to City of Vanc, strike, and Langley casino
always asked, under-served in casinos told by BC Lottery Corp, always called and I don't return calls
Police and Fire have come under scrutiny b/c cost ctrs
Police never come under scrutiny as much as last two years; made themselves more accountable and addressed retention wch was a cost to taxpayer
Fire Dept and Ccl wish to put decades of poor relationships behind them; cmnty expects us to work together; Fire WG reporting next week, and struck an interim cmte Ccl and Fire staff
no one wants to put in media, wish to serve you
Cmnty Services, greatest amt of innovation, board has met; more driven by and accountable to cmnty; raising funds to diversify from raising taxes
this doesn't happen overnight; realize residential base, far too narrow
costs are going up in labour and construction, two drivers at local level
we believe we have a lot of room for improvement, believe that happens thoughtfully
process; the fact the spotlight is on our budget is most welcome; important have shared understanding
at least how our budget has been put together so far
Sop: may I ask a question?
it strikes me, get confused, that no matter what we do we're looking at a tax increase forevermore, leads ppl to say where efficiencies any different
Fiscal Task Sustainabiliy .... what is going to change? we have not made an attempt at a zero budget or at CPI? I don't see it
Mayor: wait for debate; my comments were to address....
circular at door; hear from public then debate
Sop: that was my opening statement!
David Marley:  unfair of Cclr Sop to make my presentation!
this is the third submission ITAC has made in as many budget cycles
first time greeted by such an introduction; thank you and staff for backgrounder
in 17 years never seen such a document; focus on things we shd be focusing on
have handed out a document to each of you; no intention of reading it to you
budget calls for a 6.9% aggregate, 3.5% tax rate, 9.7% in charges and fees, 13.4% in licences and permits, all taxes by another name  -- is simply unacceptable
the attached graph: reminded of Rod Stewart song, every picture has a story, is from BC Govt sources
2006 last year figs av, 90% more than the average of the remaining Ms in the GVRD
to be fair we pay for Blue Buses and reimbursed, but we're still 67% above the average for the remaining 20 Ms; and 17% above Vancouver
quite gratifying to see public interest in this; our blogspot, www.pluckedgoose.wordpress.com wch has had in first 18 days over 3700 visits
in our first submission two years ago; fortunate to live in WV and app services we receive
we're not talking about reducing services, let's be clear
cd be retained with same or fewer tax dollars, .... if more appropriate and optimal cost-for-service tax model
we're not here so much to talk about this budget so much as process
last year we recommended a number of things that might introduce some operational measures, fiscal discipline
ONE: like any publicly traded corporation, within 45 days of end of quarter shd be quarterly financial statements on website so ppl can see what's going on
TWO: except July and Aug, monthly budget variance reports presented in this chamber by each Head publicly, and if variance of more than 2% in any given month, Head shd explain and a plan and timeline for remedial action
LASTLY: schedule of remuneration of employees in excess of $75K and expenditures over $25K  shd be provided well in advance of the budget of the date set for Ccl's final vote on the budget, so the public can consider the content of that document
last year it was provided well in advance of vote and we believe that was helpful
last time Ccl asked Mar 10, Michael Lewis asked when; today four weeks later and not provided
ask reason for delay?
Mayor: right now? Auditor was here on Friday
RL: yes, Auditor delayed; believe will be on Apr 14 agenda
DM: May 15 is the deadline, so Monday May 12th, five weeks from today; the Fin Cmte has ample time
it was suggested certain mbrs cd not get up to speed; we wd point out that on Feb 11, ITAC offered two exceptional individuals who cd serve on the Finance Cmte:
A man who has served many years as an auditor with the Fed Treasury Bd, and also as Comptroller for JP Morgan Chase in Tokyo and Chicago,
and a man who ran the Bank of Montreal in this prov for many years and is now a corporate CFO.
They both stand ready to offer their services, and if someone feels unable to be up to the task, we respectfully suggest they can step aside and these two can step in and in five weeks we can get the job done.
Mayor: will listen carefully, take notes, Ccl will work responses into debate.
Alec Orr-Ewing:  [slides]
third appearance before Ccl and Mayor
I've noticed public make statements, then Council deliberate with basically no [opp for] rebuttal [by public]

{This is why I've asked that there be a provision for someone from the public to rise on a Point of Order/Information/whatever if someone on Ccl has misstated, misconstrued, misinterpreted what he said so the record can be set straight.  Otherwise a resident has to wait until the end of the mtg when something might already have been decided or voted on so it's too late.  I remember watching one poor man so agitated he cdn't clarify/change/add to what he said.  Some ppl just leave the Chamber in frustration.  Not me, though!  I must have had a frustration inoculation.}

ev at 3.5% wage increases, cost of plumbers, everything goes up higher; went through 2007 and 2008
there's graph, hard to read but did see increase
some of these numbers just do not make sense in any aspect of someone saying that it's a managed or a fiscal responsible management
29% increase in Admin in last five years, that's off the graph
the Mayor's/Ccl's budget proposed to go up 17%
these slides colour-coded: green means shd get kudos, red shd be harshly dealt with, and yellow is highlight
CAU Dept 3% increase, Bylaws 4% -- not bad; Communications up 17%
I've actually sent emails out to ev Dept Head, wch goes into numbers of emails received, counted, but not received a response.... so perhaps communication only goes one way here
Legislative Services went down 3%; Emergency Planning up 18%
I don't want to know the reasons, this is far beyond wages or any other factor; these numbers are high
apologies for charts, didn't intend to show.....
Human Resources, last five years, up 33%; Labour Relations, increase of 48%; this cd be acctg changes b/c some of the other numbers go down drastically, but these are the numbers that are published
Financial Services last five years went up 32%, their numbers look pretty reasonable; Purchasing only 1% so belies aspect hammer and nails cost a lot more
Police overall 18%; one of the things here, it's highlighted here that Chief Constable went up 92% is a bit misleading b/c there are items that have no 2007 numbers but I added them together, what is interesting wrt answering alarms, criminal investigation monies have gone down 2%, cmnty service -21%, civilian services -16%, cmnty services {yes, repeated} -5%; OTOH, HR gone up 27%
Fire and Rescue 16% and added in $250K gone up 64%, fire prevention
Engg and Transportation shd be commended, all the way through, v low
Planning and Lands 39% over five years, these are expenditures, not net; this is the aspect of labour and costs associated with providing the  service -- Planning and Lands is up 19%
Parks pretty good, their admin up 11%, cmnty rec up 10%, rest reasonable numbers
Library 33% increase over five years, collections, books up 20% in one year, find strange
Systems and Technology increased by 15% wch I also find a little bit strange
these numbers when you look on them on an individual basis, provided by the depts, are well beyond any labour increase in costs and beyond any sort of consumer price index
I love quotations, with apologies, first word I want to use to deal with this process: "obfustication" {from obfuscation?}  is usually used when ppl do not know what they're talking about or their meaning
the second comes from Ambrose Bierce, the Devil's Dictionary, deliberation: act of examining one's bread to see wch side buttered on
George Pajari: Thank you very much, Your Worship, members of Council.
We understand that you, Mayor and Council, have difficult decisions to make -- the budget process is one of the most important and challenging responsibilities you have to discharge.
With that said -- the difficult decisions of public policy require a transparent process with comprehensive information.  Without a sound process how can your decision be sound or credible?
I submit that the budget process in West Vancouver is seriously flawed and therefore we cannot have confidence in the recommended budget. Budget information is sadly lacking, missing much of the detail that used to be available in years gone by. Staff have been forthcoming when responding to specific requests but this information ought to have been available on day one.
Page counts are a poor metric but of the three North Shore municipalities our budget book is the slimmest -- our book is 75 pages long, the District of North Vancouver's 134. I would submit none of the North Vancouver municipalities set a standard, and we do not even meet that.
The Government Finance Officers Association (GFOA) sets recommendations for budget documents, with 27 separate criteria -- again, a very low bar to meet and our budget documentation does not even meet that.
The games that were played to prevent any examination of the budget by the Finance (Advisory) Committee fooled no one. It was clear that there was no desire on behalf of either staff or Council to have qualified external eyes review the budget -- which I suggest says more about what might be hidden in the details than anything else.
When some documentation is made available, the information is nothing short of shocking. Let me point [out] a couple of examples.
Look at the justification for the recent Library RFID project. Note, I'm pointing out the flaws in the process, not the RFID project itself. For all we know, RFID might be the best thing for libraries since Gutenberg's press but when all that is provided to justify $650,000 of capital expenditure is a two-page memo with phrases such as "improved efficiencies" and "ability to reassign staff to other tasks" it is very disconcerting.
Given that hundreds of other libraries have adopted RFID one might expect that some quantitative data, how much time saved, how much staff time can be redeployed -- but there was nothing!
When Cclr Vaughan asked for such analysis it turned out that staff had no hard data -- had no idea what could be expected from the $650,000 of capital expenditure other than "improvements".
Ladies and gentlemen of Council, I respectfully submit that if you are making other capital expenditure decisions on similar two-page memos with no more than platitudes and arm-waving you cannot be surprised if those paying the bills have lost confidence in the process.
Might I also submit that if the documentation to support other budget requests are as shoddy and incomplete, it is easy to understand why they are no longer made public.
How can you, Council, do your job? make the difficult decisions if you are not getting complete information you need?
[Further eroding our confidence is that] there is little, if any, information provided the public on a month-to-month basis on detailed actual expenditures against budget.
Under your leadership, Mayor Goldsmith-Jones, the WV Police Board gets detailed multi-page reports monthly -- which might explain why the Police Department year after year compares very favourably with other municipal police forces in British Columbia. Why are similar documents not brought to Council on a regular basis, and perhaps if such documents were brought to Council we might see similar efficiencies here as the Police have managed to achieve under your leadership.
Our confidence in the process is further shaken when it is apparent that some of the information put out by staff is clearly intended to mislead and obfuscate, not clarify and elucidate.
I point out in particular the number of documents put out by staff, including tonight's, saying that the proposed tax increase is a 3.5% tax increase, well below other municipalities.
That's true, but it brings to mind Mark Twain's comments about statistics
{Editor's Note:  The quotation is"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics" and was actually by Benjamin Disraeli, but quoted in Mark Twain's autobiography so often attributed to him.}
or, in this case, budget documents.
To proclaim, nay boast, of a 3.5% budget [tax] increase while nary a whisper of the 10% increases in fees and other funds being taken from the same taxpayer pocket is, to put it mildly, misleading.
And I return to the matter of taxpayer confidence -- if the stuff we can see is so misleading, what confidence can we have in the 90% of the budget iceberg not revealed to us mere taxpayers?
If we look at the IT budget, and I pick that merely because it is my field of expertise:
Last year's budget document said the 2007 IT Budget was $1.6M.
This year's budget document said the 2007 IT Budget was $1.7M.
As a result the 11% increase in the IT Budget is made to appear to be only 4.7%. Misleading.
If we look at telecommunications and data, and compare with other municipalities, DWV spends $530K, DNV (a much larger district) $300K. Drill down to telephones and we find DWV spends $340K while DNV less than $100K.
The VoIP project appears not to have gone to tender, [DWV] went with Cisco and Telus -- known to be the most expensive, gold-plated solution available.
As one expert in the field familiar with the DWV move to VoIP said, the old service, also from Telus, was so expensive and overpriced it wasn't surprising that Telus and Cisco looked better in comparison.
In summary, the process is flawed, information is incomplete and misleading, and it is not surprising that because of this, taxpayers have a serious lack of confidence both in the process and the resulting budget.
Might I would suggest than an appropriate model to use is the grant application process. Taxpayers, having your reviewed your grant application, find it seriously wanting, and deny your request for additional tax funding until and unless you bring forward a transparent and open process with complete information that we can have confidence in.
Thank you very much.
Scott Hean:  virtually all been said by others
thank you for your time for this cmnty, wonderful cmnty to live in, proud to live in; spend personal time; faced with difficult decision
echo comments by Mr Marley and by the prev speaker; process is flawed
must change so efficiencies found in system so don't increase year after year either at or above CPI; unconscionable we continue to add year after year, has to be areas can be remanaged without reducing levels of service wch is in the paper, you yourself, Madam Mayor, say reduction or decrease in budget.  I challenge that.  I don't believe that for one second.
Many ppl in this cmnty wanting to provide valuable input so we can manage our house.
[applause, as there had been a smattering of for others]
K Steig: simply asking about what I ask ev year; what's happened to the parkland masterplan
devt of comprehensive park system plan, in P1 section
envtal strategy WG recommendations, believe approved by Ccl Jan 21st
$20K under forest mgmt  ... to update 1977 plan; confused if not in budget; 31 years since looked at
Mayor: Mr Pike, wd you like to answer?
KP: a wide variety of things not in the budget; has appeared as a budget request, over and above what current staff able to accomplish; removed when cutbacks to what Ccl will approve; happened again this year and don't expect it to change for 2009 either
KS: a background document was produced in 2006, 31 years a long time
Garrett Polman: grew up in BC, been away for 40 years, moved back three years ago; appreciate opp to ask questions on budget
Police and Fire Dept, one way you can get a sense as to how reasonable a budget is is to check with comparable entities
some compare WV with CNV b/c about same popn, but comparison with DNV more apt, geography, steep sides, share demographic factors...
in terms of police, share similarities -- we have four firehalls and DNV five plus a boat; CNV gets by with one
crime rate of WV and DNV is almost the same, in fact DNV slightly under ours, whereas CNV is considerably higher
our popn half of the DNV so how do our numbers compare?
2006 for Police 37% higher than DNV, and 36% higher for Fire Dept -- quite signif differences
for Police official statistics, case rate per police ofcr, since neck and neck in crime with DNV, why are our costs so much higher but we seem to achieve same results, what are we getting for extra 36 - 37%?
According to the Solicitor General's numbers, WV's crime rate and police load burden rate have dropped 22% between 2002 and 2006, while budgets continued to rise
2008 proposed budget is almost 10% higher than the 2006 expenses for the Police
how do we justify an increase of 10% over two years, when caseload down 22% and the Chief forecasting decrease in workload for all activities
all figs from BC Solicitor General's Dept and the BC Ministry of Cmnty Services

{NB:  NV has RCMP so that must be factored in}

wrt the Library, Ccl recently approved a $650K automated checkout system; when asked what efficiencies this system produces, the response was that there wd be staff savings but those wd be re-assigned to other areas in the Library, yet the workload targets for 2008, produced in the proposed budget show virtually no increased workload for the Library
I've worked with both the Treasury Board in Ottawa and with JP Morgan Chase for over 20 years, and the approach we use there, was that the savings generated by new systems shd be used to offset budget increases elsewhere.  Simply a way of finding money for things that increase in other areas of the entity. We wd not normally approve new systems unless they included efficiencies as a benefit, and it's standard practice for organizations trying to keep costs down by capturing efficiencies -- why not in West Vancouver?
The focus on the budget has largely focused on the 3.5% tax increase wch some ppl see as relatively moderate, however our fees, charges, permits, and licences are going up by an average of 12.2% almost four times the rate of the tax increase
most of us, whether economists or just ordinary citizens, agree high inflation is a bad thing for society -- Question: shd we not be looking at more ways to moderate what are now inordinately high fee increases?
as an ex banker, I cdn't pass this one up --
The budget plans interest income on investments to be flat compared with 2007, $1.2M income in both years.  Now with interest rates having come down as a result of Bank of Canada rate decreases, and prospects of more to come, is it realistic to assume the same amount of income?
Carolanne Reynolds, Editor of West Van Matters.
Hope you are all rested after your vacation.
I had asked for some information on several occasions starting in February and I'm still waiting for some it so I am presuming that this discussion will continue next week and I'll have it by then.
For example -- I'll give you some examples
I wanted to know how much of the cmnty benefits of the Evelyn Drive [devt] went toward the Marine Drive Gateway that's being built.
We asked, ADRA asked, in February for a list of the properties owned by the Municipality and we'd like to know when that's going to become available.
I've asked if there is a limit on, say for example $100K, if something's going out-- [putting a project out to tender if above an amount] is it the policy that you ask for bids, or competitive, or is it just granted.  There shd be some guideline for how much it is before you give staff discretion and it does not come to Ccl.
The IT Dept.  I did get the information on the salaries for 2007 and the proposed salaries for 2008, I put it in my newsletter [WVM10], but the average salary increase in that dept was 9%, and I think if that's the average there shd be some explanation for how much the difference, or why there's such a difference.
[Statements were made that the salary increase as a result of the negotiations with the union will be 3% so that was the base increase they started on for this budget.]
As others, and ITAC and ADRA and I, have personally, and I have in my newsletter, we have always asked and starting even on Mar 10th, I think Cclr Sop advocated it too, that the new Finance Cmte look at the 2008 budget.  That was requested in February, requested again in March, requested again by several ppl tonight, and I echo the others who say that you still have a month to look at it.  The next Finance Cmte's mtg is on Wed at 5 o'clock, chaired by Cclr Smith.  So I wd suggest anybody who wants to know if the FCmte actually IS going to put its mind to this budget, or is going to be encouraged to put its mind to this budget, that they attend that mtg and see what the FCmte says and does.
Now, I also agree with others who say that having the budget reduced to 1.7% or whatever the inflation rate is, or even to zero, it is possible with efficiencies, not a cutback in services (everybody is very happy with what goes on here), and I will also echo the request for the information that we used to get wch allowed then, more opportunity to suggest savings in the budget, some of wch -- I remember Mr Pike put into [took] one outsourcing suggestion that was made that saved money, he referred to it -- so my request is that the FCmte look at this on Wed, and starting on it on Wed, that you allow time for these unanswered questions to be provided to the public so that we can continue the discussion next Monday, and that you trust the public to come up with practical and positive suggestions.
So, we're all in this together, and our aim is to have an efficient well-run cmnty, and when somebody sees whipsawing in salaries, and see salaries that go up without even the procedure being presented so that we cd see it, it makes ppl feel a little unsettled, and I know that you can address that -- and I trust that the information will provided within the next week -- may I?
Mayor: we will answer some of your answers in our discussion
$1M comes from the Millennium [EvDr] for the Marine Dr Gateway, that's in the budget I believe
and Cclr Smith has some of your questions, but I think what we'll do is have our discussion and hopefully [sic] answer most of them.
CR: that's great; and I hope with more information you'll give us more time
Mayor: we'll see how Ccl wishes to go
MS:  I certainly share the objectives of many of the speakers, that's why I ran for Ccl, want to see effective and efficient use of our tax dollars; as you pointed out District does face a number of challenges
Fire and Police seriously over budget last year and that has to be addressed; if going to have a budget have to ensure that depts stick to it
Parks Dept, as our Fiscal Task Force recommended, need a biz plan for all our facilities and programs
need to address issue fact -- great -- that ppl who use our beaches, facilities, srs' ctr, Aq Ctr. come from outside the District.  Can we afford to be the recreational mecca for the NSh? have to have the discussion
another challenge expense control is one thing, we really have to drive our revenue base by addressing some of the assets we have, specifically land.  This bldg here, we're surrounded by property owned by the Municipality, including the lot across the street -- cd be a high rise devt with add'l office space for the District -- those issues have to be addressed by Ccl
speaking specifically about this proposed budget, don't know how to say tactfully, might sound immodest, but it happens to be a factual statement, I've been called many things in my life but incompetent not one of them

{Careful, Mike.   No one's mentioned 'incompetent', but now that you have brought it up, that's like telling someone that whatever you do, don't think of a monkey made of brass balls....}

it's a bit galling to sit and listen to how there are mbrs of the cmnty who can get up to speed in a five-week period come in and solve all these financial issues and lead us to the promised land.  A bit difficult to take.

{Mike's getting carried away.  No one thinks that, but it's puzzling why if help is offered, not to take.  Just cutting a bit of fat wd at least help.  We need the info first before we can find if/where to cut though......  Besides, if five weeks is not enough, why terminate the last Finance Cmte in Dec, appoint new ppl who as you say are not up to speed, and then not have a meeting till March when it's stated it's 'too late'?  Doesn't Ccl see why the public questions the actual intent of having a Finance Cmte that will look at the budget?  There was even info presented on table tonight!  Isn't it clear why ppl are questioning the process?  Given such a delayed start, why not thanks for the offer and say we'll see what we can do?  Even looking at one aspect or one dept cd help. }

re the comments of the Finance Cmte not addressing this budget, it's true there's been a change in the cmte, four new mbrs, I don't appoint the cmte, four of the six are new on cmte, but I've been on the Finance Cmte since I was elected to this Ccl, served on the Fiscal Task Force; so I think I can speak for both the Task Force and the previous and current cmte feel directionally Ccl has to go
the direction the District needs to go
I've been working with Mr Laing and you, Madam Mayor, to address the issue of our 5.1% proposed increase initially needed to retain and maintain existing level of services; now reduced to 3.5%
how did we get to 3.5%?
glad somebody did ask;
Curiously last year cmte recommended 2.95% wch this Ccl changed at the last minute dropped to 2.45%

{Actually came in at more and then was reduced to zero.  The reason a percentage is quoted instead of the proclaimed zero is b/c of funds from elsewhere or a lower charge than expected, so that although it was stated as a zero tax rate increase, they didn't have to cut the whole amt.}

this year was 5.1% tax rate increase, reduced to 3.5%
one year half a per cent less, and this year half a per cent more; we have been directionally complied with the Finance Cmte, that was done with a lot of work
The Finance Cmte views were presented to Ccl by myself
so if into debating, whether 3.5 more or less, critically important ppl understand the shell game played last year 2.95% at last minute cut to 2.45%
reality is that in Nov, we had to pass a special spending bylaw wch was more than three times more than a half a per cent cut
it was a shell game and taxpayer in the middle, and no way I want to see that happen again this year.
I wd say to my fellow mbrs of Ccl, if there are cuts to be made in this budget, and I'm happy to listen to anything that makes sense, there has to be a specific cut.
if you want to cut and close a firehall to save money, that's one thing.  If you want to reduce the Police budget, that's another thing.  If you want to close the Library one day a week, that will save us money.  If we want to alternate the Aq Ctr and the new Cmty Ctr, and have one open on odd days and one on even days, great way to solve our parking problem, and wd save us money.  There's no point in railing against this 3.5% increase unless you're prepared to say what you want cut out.

{Hold it right there!  How the heck can we???
If you (Ccl) don't give us the info asked for, if you don't appoint ppl ready and willing to look at the budget, how can you expect well-considered, practical suggestions for cuts???
Besides, don't you recognize the old tried-and-true staff trick?  If asked to cut, mention cutting something really popular so the public will object.  Presto! they do the work for you so it's not cut.  Meanwhile back on the feather bed............  Pls don't say you've fallen for that!}

that's where we have to drive the debate; the reality is if this Ccl is going to seriously address a lot of these challenges talked about that lie ahead, then this Ccl must be focused and disciplined to address issues and approach in a fact-based manner

{bzzzt! wd help if we got the info.......}

Look forward to it; so I'm happy to sit here all night and debate it as long as anybody has anything to say.
{Ccl only allowed to speak now.}
Sop: this year, more expression, discussion than ever before in 12 years on Ccl; result of interest
timely, one common denominator; concept, concept I have, doing more for less
seen consistent budget increases, bureaucratic way of life, way grown up with
is that the way of future?
don't have industry, we don't have those luxuries
not a percentage increase; look at what is done in process can provide us with ways and means, look at efficiencies within ev dept we have, new way of budgeting
looking curiously, Mr Laing, at your p 3 wch says "in 2009 full revenue and tax policy disclosure will be required in financial plan documents, Ms will be required to provide more detail about their purpose, making choices, direction they are heading and how they are going to get there, and Ccl will make decisions based on these explicit policies"
I ask you tonight, why not applying that to this 2008 budget?
if wave of future why are we not doing it now?
Mayor: Mr Laing--
Sop: --I haven't finished
Mayor: am sure you haven't, but so we can keep up
RL: has been followed from square one, starting recommendations from Fiscal Task Force
look for new revenue sources, more heavily involved in user-pay; done that more aggressively this year than ever in past
re Ministry requirements, really to do with the tax allocation wrt tax categories, mainly in Vancouver -- biz vs residential tax rate
Ministry wants financial plans ... the only not specifically addressed is class multiples -- we have the lowest biz class multiple in the region, it hasn't changed for some time
without explicitly raising it with Ccl I'm assuming that policy has not changed

{what the Mayor explained in the introduction is that WV decided not to have industry and limited commercial areas -- that's the biz class of taxes.  Right now residents pay 92% of the taxes and the biz tax rate is the lowest.  IMO raising this to take a bit off the residents shd hv been considered.  Is it too late?  Someone cd suggest it at Monday's mtg.  The biz portion is so small, you'd have to see what a difference it wd make.  OTOH, every little bit helps.  And this is why it's not a magic bullet that's needed (though that wd be much easier), rather looking at a few obvious things and leave the deeper digging till the 2009 budget ... but it doesn't mean we just throw our hands up and do nothing!}

Sop: appreciate what you're saying but this grabs me: taxpayer only has one pocket
tax and user pay, all taxation, all comes out of one pocket
you'd think if user pay goes up, tax wd come down -- where?
this is not so much about 3.5% as it is about a new direction and policy and how we budget, and it shd start in 2008, not 2009
you say indicators in there and some adjustments
there are some things in the budget I agree with -- the golf bldg; that stood for many years, unresolved, building almost disintegrated before our eyes and income decreased b/c of lack of facility;  Ccl made decision this year; will see a bldg there, a plan and efficiency and stand by that
look at Library differently see $1M provided by a Fdn, money from taxpayers in their generosity
a portion was budget in 2007 so balance this year was on lesser side
again, where are the efficiencies that come from that?
it was generous patrons, value education so get end results
a long burning issue with me, the Fire Dept, all wanted to follow rules of safety four-man, ran into prob with overtime; maybe some solution, been lingering close to ten years
where efficiencies in all that time?
if the golf bldg had been done at first, within first three years, less cost and more revenue last three years, I think so
first, it's process
but tonight we have a backgrounder that is presented tonight and a new interpretation by Mr Laing in his report to us, and a document about biz class, property tax, as well as the five-year and we're being asked tonight to pass this budget, readings, and think that it's premature
info laid on me when I came to the office tonight, info I hadn't seen, public hasn't except picking it up tonight
ample time to bring budget to conclusion
interest in this budget has made us all better aware, challenging, good thing for the future
shd not pass in view of this new information
wd characterize a position, we do look to Cclr Smith and Fin Cmte, to supply us with indicators for sound fiscal advice, we're not all fiscally prudent but we try to acknowledge and understand
when we have ppl who will provide this info and knowledge for us, one wd think the Fin Cmte wd say let's roll up our sleeves and see what we can do
if you can find monies to bring it down to 3.5%, you can certainly bring it back down in the five weeks even more than that and suggest you do that; present us with something
you can say here's something sustainable and we're finally turning the corner
JC: I'll wait for the applause to die down; agree with much of Cclr Smith said
a number of letters showing ppl really don't understand the process
this is a staff budget and won't be Ccl's until Ccl adopts the paperwork, then it becomes a child of Ccl
as we all know when you adopt a child then responsible, we're not there yet; we do have some serious problems
was a mbr of the Fiscal Sust Task Force and have been a mbr of F&Audit Cmte for past sev years
was shocked frankly, at last mtg when budget discussion was proposed by me, I'd questioned why it wasn't on the [Fin Cmte mtg] agenda, one of the new mbrs said he didn't feel he was ready or prepared to delve into the budget and that sentiment was echoed by at least two of the other three; as a result the cmte left that mtg and didn't talk about budget at all
we have exponential growth in our org; salaries and benefits comprise slightly in excess 80% of our operating budget
Police and Fire have risen from $6M six years ago to a projected $14M each in four years
wonder if we're prepared to spend $30M a year as a M, as a cmnty, on those two items -- two largest, not singling them out
grown by 37% FTE employees over past six years, and many at the mgmt level, at top end of salary and benefit scale -- they cost more
we presently subsidize Gleneagles Rec Ctr by over $600K a year, a bldg built at 23,000sf and in fact was proposed at 33K, when I almost had my first heart attack.  Fact is we built 23,000 sf  to replace Eagle Hbr wch was 5,700 sq ft -- if that's not out of proportion, I don't know what is, but it's there
I wonder if we shdn't be looking to sell it, tear it down, put in housing, condos or something, and a 5000sqft rec ctr.
we have lands identified for disposal
examples: where 12th meets MDr, dead end, been like that for 50 years, concrete abutment, probably worth $1M, and what do we do?  absolutely nothing!  left there
HBay firehall site, firehall's gone, still there for months and months and hasn't been sold -- somebody cd hv put a 'for sale' the day after and then got a plan going.
{he means the one at HBay they're now thinking of sgl-fam homes or townhouse}
been talking about disposable lands for funds for Argyle props, circulate funds back for ppl to enjoy
now heard talk last week putting that money into infrastructure fund, have no idea of that, no idea what that wd be and I totally oppose it

{Ah, yet another topic clearly discussed behind closed doors.  Thanks, Sop, for letting us know.
And it is a good idea.  We agree selling land to consolidate or buy other land; we do NOT agree selling land, an asset that grows in value (Wetmore), to pay for buildings (Cmnty Ctr) wch depreciate.  Is it true Mr Laing wisely took out the assumption of selling Wetmore to pay for Cmnty Ctr?
Speaking of the CCC, are we funding the ~$1.5M the WV Youth Band had promised to raise the money for?}

I heard Mr Marley talk tonight, and I heard him say a couple of months ago, two mbrs of cmnty two eminently qualified, keenly interested, v willing to serve on the Fin Cmte
I believe we shd take them up on their offer; I really do, we have time to do this; I move we defer this for three weeks, that we appoint these two gentlemen on an interim basis (I know they're in the audience); that we direct the Finance Cmte to find ways and means to reduce this budget, and report back by  Apr 28
Sop: seconded
Mayor: vote on deferral? debate?
MS: almost at a loss for words -- there's no magic bullet
I agree with a lot of what Cclr Clark said -- absurd fire site not sold; these things unacceptable, clearly no question about it
but if ppl are looking for magic bullet, a simple solution, it all comes back to this Ccl.
Cclr Sop and Clark hv been sitting here for many, many years
I had no part of that western rec ctr, or that Gleneagles bldg allowed to deteriorate until actually unserviceable.
The point I was trying to make was that Ccl has to be more disciplined and more focused and address these issues b/c in the long run it's going to save the public money, but just to defer for three weeks and, not that I have any objection to adding more ppl to the cmte, it's absurd to suggest that in three weeks anybody cd come in and fully understand the v complicated finances of this District and make any meaningful and relevant suggestions.  To back up my point, I started off by say, if you want to make cuts, what do you want to cut out?
nobody's said a thing; it's true -- in two and a half years of sitting here, the only cut that's been presented in this Ccl Chamber, only one was when I stood up and said let's lead by example and cut our ccl stipend by 50% and of course went over like a lead balloon.  That's the only suggested cut that's ever been made.

{oh dear.  Give us more info so we can spot where to cut!  A) ppl have made suggestions (were you listening to Cclr Clark?); B) cutting cclrs' stipends wd yield a paltry $60K or so and with the Mayor's still under $100K.    That barely pays half of the salary and benefits of ONE division head.  There are not just other places to cut, but there are ways of raising revenue.   Sponsorships, partnerships, outsourcing, etc.}
in the meantime, there's more hot air flying around in here, the whole roof of the building will be lifted off
you can't just sit here and say there shd be a zero % tax increase, shdn't be this, shd be efficiencies, all sounds great, it's a pipe dream, it's a smokescreen, it's not there, no magic bullet

{amazing -- completely ignoring what ppl have said and Clark's examples!
On top of that, no one mentioned a magic bullet; the unrealistic may dream of one but then shoot themselves}

the FinCmte isn't going to be able to find all these efficiencies in next three weeks, doesn't matter who sits on it
if you want to go on with stalling tactic b/c of political posturing and acceptable to do so,

{and just who's stalling?  remember that Finance & Audit Cmte mtg I attended in September that had a timeline showing info to public in November for review and input and, even this evening some new material presented just before second reading, unbelievably!
Material expected didn't come to the cmte.
Ccl terminated the F&A Cmte in December.
Didn't get around appointing the new cmte until Feb.
First mtg wasn't until Mar 12, then the only ccl mtg since then was March 17th until this one.
Who was responsible for lack of information and no Fin Cmte for a couple of months?
Then why rush now when deadline more than a month away?
Why have the Fin Cmte only meet once a month when the F&A sometimes met weekly?
Who's running the railway?
Who's minding the store?
Public's barely given a look-in!
and then chastised for not coming up with ideas of where to cut???
C'mon.  Be fair.}

it'll make us like last year -- cut out half a per cent and then in Nov we had to pass a bylaw with three times as much money.

{er, um, not exactly.  Wasn't half a million dollars of that b/c of the way the Police Chief was terminated so it was an amount that was not anticipated?  another half a mil was Fire Dept overtime and since the Dir/Finance informed Ccl of the WVFD overage in the summer, why was nothing done before Nov to stop the bleeding?}

When are ppl going to wake up here, it's a shell game.  And you ppl are being used as the ducks (?) {well, I cdn't quite hear what that last word was, but we get the point.}
this motion might be politically expedient but makes absolutely no sense, so I'm not going to support it
JF: won't support deferral either; all have ability; get on with it
3.5% weeks ago; info that new
in general terms my comments two weeks ago
unless decide rezone Amb to highrise; difficult cmnty in terms of taxes; can't see deferring this
RD: against deferral, agree with Cclr Ferguson
looked v closely at this budget

{really?  not the impression left when you modestly demurred commenting at the ADRA AGM in February.}

modest increase compared with other Ms; hard to beat that, I think
things I know closely about RFID, Police, doing a good job; come back to that; going to vote against deferral
Sop: I support the deferral
distressed Cclr Smith says we're in a shell game; he's been part of everything that we've done here, in looking for guidance.  It seems to me all we're asking here is to defer this so public, Ccl, staff have enough time to go back, see are there any more efficiencies? have we gone as far as we can?
and yes, we have to find ways, examples, but just to throw hands up and say this is the best we can do, is not good enough, and I'm asking this Ccl to reverse your thoughts about this and give this a deferral to such time that we have some sensible three weeks or more, get some of these ppl in with expert advice, and let them go at it  -- that's the right thing to do!
not to just say this is the best we can do, that's not right
MS: why opposed? b/c the longer we wait, the more likely we'll run into November issue where budget's overspent
{oh dear, guess ploy is to just wave the November flag without acknowledging that $1M was avoidable -- that was a result of Ccl's decisions.  Why not dealt with before too late?  Why not this time try to see what can be avoided?  Not nice to advocate being factual when not being so in arguments....}
it's now April, we've got to make changes to bring this budget in on budget
The number for the Fire Dept in the 2008 budget is approximately what was spent in 2007, so if we don't make changes now, we're going to be sitting here two weeks after the election, passing another supplementary spending in November for another $1M

{how was that conclusion reached?
Aren't there measures in place to avoid that?  or can they be put in during the month that's left?

so my point is demonstrated -- by Cclrs Clark and Sop who've been on this ccl for 21 years and I challenge them, if you don't like this budget, just show me one thing that you'd cut out and if it makes sense, cut it right here and now, don't have to wait three weeks, and I'll support it
{but -- but -- but, Clark did!  Sop wanted to look! and give us the info, the time to review and to make suggestions -- if we can't find any, then at least we tried (and you listened!).}

Mayor: I agree, I'm not going to support the deferral
certainly not support appointing cmte mbrs to any of our cmtes based on a gallery suggestion in the middle of a ccl debate
we have fine ppl serving on all our cmtes for a broad range of reasons, our cmtes aren't lobby groups, they're citizens that come with open minds with a broad range of skills.

{hm? nobody's doubting all fine upstanding citizens, or a broad range of skills.  Finance does seem to be a cmte that needs particular skills or expertise.  One might assume those being appointed wd be aware of what was expected before accepting, no?  The point is, why appoint ppl to a Finance Cmte to look at the 2008 budget if they are either not qualified to do so or don't feel ready/comfortable/able to do so?  Unless you don't want them to look at the 2008 budget, of course.  Silly me.}

we can talk about the Fin Cmte another time; it's a good FCmte
the prev Fin Cmte led by Cclr Smith and Clark, access to staff for info at any time and any mbr of the cmnty at any time so we have to have some confidence in the work of that cmte as well as the one that's coming up.
{what about all the cancelled mtgs FCmte mtgs in the fall b/c info/material not ready or available so that the aim of passing budget by end of year fell by the wayside?  No problem with extension if to get more info b/c more time or details needed, but now we have the worst of both worlds.  Delay and still not all the info!}
I don't think it makes sense in the middle of the budget debate
We are the decision-makers.
This is second reading.
We can decide what we want to do at second reading
we're also asked to consider third reading following this, we can defer that, but without any direction to staff with the kind of confused leadership being demonstrated by some mbrs of Ccl who will support early approval of the Library budget, who will support the Gleneagles clubhouse, who will make statements about wishing to see four firefighters on a truck, and then suggest this budget isn't supportable -- when those are some of the major drivers, that's irresponsible, so let's have--
Sop: --I beg your pardon, it is not irresponsible
Mayor: let's have second--
Sop: that's an absolute wrong statement
Mayor: I'm speaking against--
Sop: --you're speaking about me
Mayor: I'm speaking--
Sop: I don't accept that
Mayor: well wd you wish to challenge the chair?
Sop: I'll challenge the chair on the basis that all I'm asking, if in fact the staff, if the staff can find efficiencies to come down to 3.5 they sure as heck can go back and find and cut more if they choose to
and I said specifically there are certain things in the budget I accepted, there are other things in the budget that I don't, and what's wrong with going back and talking about that?
that's all it was pertaining to, so don't go zeroing in on me, just b/c I'm trying to make things improve--
Mayor: I didn't
Sop: you did
Mayor: I did not
Sop: you did, specifically to me
Mayor: I'm speaking against deferral and in favour of second reading
Sop: well, then you don't have to get personal
Mayor (at same time): third reading follows that; I didn't
Sop: you did.
Mayor: I wd like to call the question on deferral
[FAILS; only Clark and Sop in favour of deferral]
Mayor: now we're at second reading
don't believe Cclr Ferguson or Day gave thoughts; ample opp to do at second reading
RB: if there's no motion on the table
Mayor: yes, still introducing; shd put the motion on the floor
[MS made motion on Five-Yr Financial Plan bylaw be amended by adding a new section, 4.1, property tax distribution policy as set out in the report set out by the Dir of Finance Apr 4, and be read a second time as amended.]
{so why can't we look at this new policy and comment???}
JF: number of emails, comments this evening, won't go over my comments of two weeks ago
wd make some answers to some queries
concern expressed about an over-bloated admin and some shd be expecting our directors to take a salary cut and be pleased to work in WV
also heard of staff being accused of obfuscation and time I have spent on this Ccl, never encountered any obfuscation
any enquiries I've had or any I've heard the public make have been responded to in a manner of great integrity, sincerity, and capability

{oh really?  what about info I've asked for? David Marley as asked for?
It is possible to politely not provide answers.......}

and I'm v proud of the directors, and of all of the staff in WV; one of the ppl who came to the mic this evening said how proud he was to live in WV, I wd have to agree and am particularly proud of loyal and hard-working staff

{well, they did go along with closed mtgs for both the Amb T Ctr WG and the Arts/Culture WG,on wch Cclr F was the ccl liaison, even though that was against the WG guidelines, not to mention that the guidelines were developed by the CEC wch Cclr F sits on!}

it has been my observation over last few years, increasingly difficult to recruit for WV b/c of high cost of living; have to commute an hour b/c can't afford to live here
3.5% tax increase is not an outrageous amt; $97 for an av assessment of $1.4M
less than it costs for me to have newspapers delivered to my cmnty
don't think that's a bad investment; think it's a v good investment
Mayor: call question on bylaw amended by adding new section

{and when did we see that or have it explained, new and why?}

Sop: may I ask what the purpose is of adding this new section is?
Mayor: we're just discussing the property tax distribution policy that needs to be articulated now, wch deals with the different property classes
Sop: why are you adding it in now, Mr Laing? why is it being added now?
RL: adding in now b/c overlooked before, I didn't believe that it was required until 2009, that's when the full requirements come in
discovered with my staff that we did have to cover off the relative tax distribution between the property classes
technical issue that needs to be embedded in the bylaw
essentially, need to be seen to be agreeing to applying the 3.5% to all prop classes
Mayor: in favour?
Sop: opposed
Mayor: this is just good reporting; now do we now read into the record second reading?
MS: move second reading
RD: ITAC has done a good job and we value what they've done, they've had input and we've listened; think they've raised some questions we will want answers to, also red and orange questions
{he's referring to the slides showing where big increases}
by proceeding we're not ignoring  thoughts and criticisms; we're listening and will get some answers for them

{hm.  It's great that you say you'll get the answers, so can't understand why you wdn't defer second reading until AFTER the answers given.  Doesn't make sense.}

a couple of areas I have more interest in
re Library, I sit on the Board and it's misleading to say throwing away RFID, $650K, without any real thought or care

{No one said throwing away $650K on RFID, did they?  I didn't hear that.  I did hear however good it was the request lacked supporting justification so ppl wd know and understand.  If Cclr V didn't see anything about if or where savings, did you?  And if you did, why not eagerly tell all of us?}

the board autonomous, citizens analyze thoroughly, it was over $1M and RFID was part of general remaking of the circulation system, better processing techniques, also wd refashion the system, main desk particularly, create more office space and more mtg rooms, make the Library more efficient, of the million dollars, 60% paid for by the Library Fdn, $400K was already in the budget so only paying $250K
if hadn't voted we wd have lost 60% of the financing from the Library Fdn; perfectly reasonable, in fact enlightened; make it more efficient and save us money

{really confusing!  the motion clearly had the amt of $650K wch is why several ppl referred to it.  Hard to imagine the Library Fdn wd withdraw funds -- unless it decided to apply those to another good cause for the Library.
Wd hv helped perhaps to have had more clarification when the request for $650K came to Ccl.
Good to know more space, maybe even pleased there'll now be concert space and more meeting space in the Library and wd agree, but it shd be fully set out.   Not possible to judge b/c info missing -- as a speaker above said, it might be the most important advance since Gutenberg but that info did not accompany the motion for $650K.
 And sorry, no one claimed it wd save money.  That was Cclr V's question and the answer was more toward better serving demanding clientele.  That may be valid too but there wasn't anything about saving money.  Or maybe that's what you believed at the time.}

Police: the stats we see is faster than other two NSh Ms; last month made some changes, quite well run
discussion with Fire Union, planning to hire five more fire ppl; solving this problem of overtime
we're doing a lot of things, in making cmnty run more efficiently
ppl mention the golf course, we just voted to redo; don't understand criticism, not earlier b/c building other facilities ppl really like -- ppl are going to love the new Cmnty Ctr, going to cost money just as they do the Aq Ctr
all-weather fields, love Gleneagles, admit bit of a Cadillac, but it's being used, will more -- growth in West and we'll be glad we build that facility some day; maybe now on expensive side.

{! some day? and how do you justify subsidizing it by at least $600K a year?  Surely this is a place some savings can be made, or some cuts or reallocations......... wd easily have paid the whole amt for RFID!  that's over 1% right there.
BTW, when was Ccl told it wd cost this much? agreed? prepared? if they didn't know, why didn't they ask?}

finally about staff; been on Ccl ten years and then six years, 16 years; not saying ev staff mbr has been perfect; been really impressed with our staff, hard-working, honest, give of their time, they care about their cmnty and give of their time.  I just think it's unfair to bash the staff all the time,

{hm?  ppl are looking for cuts, savings, and efficiencies and you've translated that into "bashing the staff all the time"?  Isn't that a bit of a stretch?  twisting what's been said?
We all realize that having someone in Finance Dept charged with embezzlement some years ago, and a few other hiccups are really the exceptions but that doesn't mean no one shd watch or that outside, ie public, shd not be able to get a look in.}

not getting more money than other Ms, we're in a labour market shortage; if you cut salaries they're going to leave; just lost a good mbr of Planning Dept and went over to Vanc
more demand than supply these days; slash their salaries and you're not going to be far worse served, or served the way you've been served.
you have excellent facilities, excellent staff, and a Ccl and staff that manage your finances v carefully

{use that reasoning on cclrs?  their salaries around $20K while senior staff over $100K, even managers over $75K -- wd we get more capable dedicated cclrs willing and able to put in the time if paid more?  Wd, and I'm not suggesting it, senior staff had a salary freeze for a year?  especially if salaries have gone up twice the rate of inflation of COL the last few years?}

Sop: guess this whole exercise is not about individuals, more about process; said that from the beginning
I asked Mr Laing when we wd be receiving salary list
he informed me that any interpretation from that list wdn't be anything of value to us.
I said okay, I'll accept that
one wonders when we talk about not deferring, acceptance not moving ahead, about the amt of info presented to Ccl in a timely manner and how in fact we perceive we are going to do our job when we don't have the documents in front of us to do our job
a prime example, the infrastructure budget wch is determined by staff, presented to Ccl, we have no clear way of being involved with that whatsoever, other than to see the end result
end result showed us that there was a figure; we have no interplay, in how in fact each dept comes to their eventual end -- so how do you make an informed decision other than end result?
{that's why I keep asking for the 'binder'!}
and that end result came to $7.5M, and lo and behold, it was dropped by $500K and rate then down to 3.5%
we want to see the information that is needed for us to make informed decisions on the salaries paid to exempt staff
not to cut, not to say that they're not hard-working ppl
is there a better system? how was the system done?
we were charged, as the Financial Officer said, you passed it; what did we pass in 2002?
we passed that there wd be a partnership or a 'me too' clause/attitude for exempt staff; I don't have a problem with that but what we were not aware or at the time was is how developed over and above that, and that includes levels or steps -- step up get rewarded, take another step up, get rewarded, and that was not something we were aware of at the time.
want clarified, that's part of this process, to understand it, more than anything else that is lacking

{yup.  There you have it, folks.  Not only does the public not get some information but neither does Ccl!  Guess we shdn't think just residents are being shut out of some things or some sensitive things.}

it's those types of things
there are things in the budget that we like and other things we need clarification on
maybe we won't get down to 1.5 or wherever, but at least we've made the absolute attempt on behalf of the citizens to go ahead and look at everything we possibly can do and set the road, Mr Laing, for a new direction in the future
it's not that we're at 3.5 and can't go any lower, but we don't have all the information in front of us at this point in time to make that decision
that's really the injustice here in this quick rush to judgement to get this thing passed rather than not
what's wrong with a good discussion? valuable to cmnty, democracy in action; we can get some result better than what we have in the past or now
ask you to consider that and come up with info we need
RB: remind them in 2002 when the exempt salary policy was adopted there was fully disclosed, outside consultants steps, things of that nature; fully reviewed with Ccl at that time
{if so, must have been buried or forgotten b/c no cclr I've spoken with cd explain the raises except to say a 'formula' that they don't get to have anything to do with,}
RL: I hardly know where to start
this budget process began last July; staff came to Ccl with, to initiate a discussion as to what wd be the basis, what wd be the targets
for 2008
we clarified what Ccl wanted to see, service changes
showed figs and estimates, we agreed and got approval from F&A Cmte an Ccl and agreed on target of 3%

{if so, maybe Ccl has changed its mind; maybe public has changed its mind.}

Staff spent many many hours
getting to 3% was extremely challenging and along the way we made reports to Ccl, v challenging and difficult to find it
partway through we talked about the role of fees and charges
met with Ccl on at least three occasions, talked about the details, staff assn, union staff, staff in every dept
encouraged to think outside the box
put together over a hundred proposals, did vetting, some nonstarters
reviewed material with Ccl, got a preliminary indication, go ahead

IF, and I have no reason to doubt with RL is saying, IF all of this information, these suggestions, and discussions going on with Ccl, then they must have been BEHIND CLOSED DOORS, b/c who recalls any of these choices offered or debates in public?
I go to every mtg and have never seen a list of choices wch wd have budget repercussions or were wrt planning the 2008 budget. 
Why did Ccl allow or permit all of these extremely important issues be done effectively IN SECRET?
Shd staff have brought this to the public's attention so not a surprise?
Now perhaps the break in the link of the chain has been exposed.....}

did achieve our targets of 3%, two items outside not within the 3%; this document indicating six pages of detail proposed under infrastructure fund to form basis
following that, Ccl approved what process was going to be
a budget newsletter and got approval for where we were, there were add'l issues
in the end, more extensive process, far more comment, a lot of discussion; discussion of Fire issue, Police issue, fees and subsidies; cost of Cmnty Ctr

{yes, newsletter was good; bit of a problem that some information only supplied tonight, 'on-table', and some information still missing.
Mtg only one and at Ccl chamber -- that was a good one, but much requested info not yet available.
Emphasis was on 'high level' and that, ipso facto, means skimming the surface.
We all know the devil is in the details.}

to Ccl, what budget wd look like; rationale
instructed to draft bylaws on that basis; and we did that
knowing where one stands in the process is a valuable thing; I guess we haven't known that

{everyone acknowledges and appreciates efforts made to bring budget down from 5.1% to 3.5%; just that some want the add'l information and maybe it can get to zero as it did last year.}

Sop: what info are you going to supply on operating budget or financial plan before final reading? exempt staff, wch wd be how it wd relieve us of any peculiarities or any interest that wd be valuable to us
RL: I did miss one step.  The Dir of HR did make at least two detailed presentations to Ccl on staff compensation, including compensation rates for ev Director in this room, Ccl knows and has known for some time, what our salary rates are
the FIA report that we're working on right now does not give you compensation information
it give you cash flow information a year late
you're going to see, for example, in my case, I was paid out three weeks of vacation I cdn't take in the previous year

{that's interesting.  Who allowed that? Who set a policy that staff are paid for holidays not taken?  and there are other staff, deputy Finance Director, senior manager(s), not only that Ccl doesn't meet in August......  It's not healthy not to take a break -- sorry to hear that...... how many others are collecting an extra three weeks' pay?}

you're going to see payout of banks, those kinds of things

{think he means banked time -- but that begs the question.  Are staff allowed to bank time?  who decides that? or if bank time means time off in lieu of? or paid out?  if paid out, then how is that calculated?  that's somewhat equivalent to overtime?  so this means overtime, and overtime for how many staff?  who controls overtime?  is it limitless?  as many staff as want to can be paid out instead?  what proportion is that of the operating budget then?
So many questions! so little time (now)!}

that is not compensation, that is not expenditure for purposes of this budget.
Sop: I'd be more interested in the process, Mr Laing, how one achieves it
if no way of finding efficiencies anywhere within the method this M adopts to do budgeting, fair enough, but we don't have all the information
we're passing this budget on first reading and we haven't really clarified all these information bits we shd have had before us at the very beginning, not three quarters of the way through, and not on the v night we're going ahead with this Five-Yr Capital.
it's not about personalities, it's about process and there's a big difference
RL: I'm not talking personalities, talking process, approval dates, milestones, moving the process along, knowing at each step where we need to be

{but WITHOUT information requested -- overdue!}

MS: Mr Laing has summarized it thoroughly and effectively
hope I can speak more calmly than earlier
bn a huge amount of time and effort, not just Mr Laing and his staff
all heads, ev dept was leaned on to meet this objective Ccl set, 3%, and a lot of things fell out
some, can build solid biz case shd be in there but money determined not to be there
finally, this budget pays for the existing levels of services with some modest additions, a few more firefighters,  police cars, training in Police Dept
fire and crime don't stop at our border
true there are choices Ccl can make but tough
staff can only do so much; they've ground it to death
It's now April, got to make immediate changes to some of the ways we're operating if we're going to meet this budget
if not want to pass this budget, I can accept that, but as long as somebody says this shd be cut out.
let's change the library hours, change Aq Ctr hours, let's not pave roads as planned; legitimate conversation and prepared to have the debate
as I keep saying no magic bullet, no magic solution

{did anyone think they'd get one?  West Vancouverites I suspect are well aware of where money comes from and how it ought to be spent to think they cd elect or choose magicians to run their business.....}
the only thing we can do to reduce this from 3.5%, wch as Cclr F says is $8 a month, is to cut programs and services, and I'm prepared to listen to rational suggestions but I haven't heard any
countless hours staff have spent grinding down, point has to be duly noted
JF: some comments wrt process; found thorough, maybe more than any of my years on Ccl
evidenced by much larger mbrs of public prepared to put in more time, hours and hours
perusing all the documentation they've been able to get their hands on
have heard concern about the quality of info staff put out
In 2006 and 2007, our budget booklets have won awards, national awards from the Govt Finance Officers Assn, for being so inclusive, so deep, and so easy to read and understand

FYI, GFOA has an award for budget booklets but DWV has NOT won that award, it won for the annual report -- AND the annual report is DIFFERENT FROM BUDGET!
You, Dear Readers (Listeners in Chamber, Watchers on TV) , are left with this impression wch is not accurate.
No one on Ccl points this out (but the Mayor, later, does make the right reference, however that does not change the fact that the advertising claims above are not true.
Was JF misled or is she intentionally misleading?}

I find myself wondering how indeed we can improve this process
maybe not this go-round but my hope is that our FCmte will be able to make some viable suggestions to meet the needs of the cmnty who seem to feel that our process doesn't pass muster, that there's something lacking; hopefully [sic] we can get that information so we can improve what goes on
I'm at a loss quite frankly, I'm certainly no financial wizard, I'm at a loss to say how process cd be improved, I get lots of info
Mayor: I wasn't on Ccl when that exempt staff review in 2002 took place, but I was aware Ccl was phasing in that approach, adjusting for what was fair seemed to be reasonable and prudent, so you see these adjustments in certain years
was not on Ccl when decided to build Gleneagles C Ctr, but my goodness, it's an institution out west, it's there now; we're all responsible for it
don't understand the point in acting like we're stewards
agree it cd be better used and that's root of putting a board for the new Cmnty Ctr; key to broader cmnty use
wrt our land sales prog, that languished but has a first class Land Agent in Gordon Reid, pulling forward in a systematic way with what we can do with pieces of land we've got
when we looked at old firehall site, real interest to participate; housing dialogue, so that is working out
really important to understand what our staff do: they cd focus on not answering the phone
they deal with things that come up ev week like dogs, policy, field allocations, childcare crises that arise work with parents, access, parking at Collingwood
we have a facilitative staff, that's increasing the criteria for who we need
have taken four parks positions into two, we have no parks plan, haven't had one for 31 years
basically saying to the Envmt WG, we're not funding your priorities
no funding for work on 21st, have plans for; no pottery studio; no connection to Srs' Ctr
I have had more comments on what we don't have and who we're serving than I have about the 3.5% budget
That is not to say our tax base is going to be able to continue in this vein
I think we all understand that
What I have tried to do, and I take full responsibility for the increase in the Mayor and Ccl budget, b/c that's my assistant, there was one person that was shared between many in the admin dept down here, and I have made it a priority to connect with partners, and we have seen the benefit of that.  I think this Ccl has driven more revenue by taking a diff approach than in prior years
when it comes to the bids: we do it ourselves if it's cheaper, like the bridge in Eagle Harbour built by one of our worksyard guys from recycled lumber wch cost 15% of what it wd hv cost to contract it out.
We don't take our big rocks up to Squamish for same reason, we crush and re-use them
same with green waste, innovation of our staff goes on and on
RFID, why we do if if we can't save money, it's the demand of the average library patron in WV goes up and up and up
progs at Lib, a couple of hundred that didn't exist six years; staff rise to the occasion
I think Cclr Smith is right; can't ask a lot more
if we go too much farther without a proper sensible approach, not a last-minute approach, then we risk losing some of our v best

{good summary but NO ONE is suggesting we not have a sensible approach; besides, isn't it sensible to be given the information so that sensible decisions can be made?}

and we let ourselves down b/c we live in a cmnty that can figure things out, and I think that's what ITAC is saying
That's welcome and won't participate in impugning the motives of any citizen or any mbr of this Ccl
Cclr Sop, when I said some mbrs, I shd have said ev mbr, ev person sitting at this table has supported the Library, golf clubhouse, four on a firetruck, I think that's something we shd be proud of, beginning last July, ev mbr of Ccl huge impact, huge input, see highly responsive staff
from my point of view, you're right, were stewards of the process just b/c someone doesn't like outcome doesn't mean  anything was wrong how we got to this point
our challenge is v narrow tax base; our challenge is external bodies like TransLink -- if we cd all pull together work on that, it wd have a serious impact on our bottom line; that shdn't be on prop taxes whatsoever
{yup, yup, yup}
can argue school taxes shdn't be and many in local govt wd
glad we're at second reading; interested in any further comments by mbrs of Ccl
important to hold in our heads, we're on the same team, trying to do best for our cmnty
staff in middle and know have done a lot of work
Sop: b/c one goes against for other reasons, that suddenly we're bad guys; we're pulling together for this cmnty and taxpayers
find odd, rather progressive that Mr Laing on p 3, states "Ms will be required to provide more detail purposes in making choices of the matters of the budget, direction heading and how get there from here."
long range
It talks about being specific about what you're going to do, we can no longer do a corp biz plan that is not tied to finance costed out with a biz plan, yet we've done that for several years
some semblance of costing, put staff through with milestones to a point going sideways
cost associated to it; everybody tried their best
let's make some inroads to the way we do financing for sustainability for the taxpayer
nobody's the bad guy here
Mayor: I think we have that
all that's changed is something we've had all along, into their wording to meet criterian, not as if not already doing it ; similar with biz plan probably first in prov to have biz plan; similarly with our annual reports that have won GFOA awards two years in a row, tend to be leading

{Mayor has it correct.}

with our budget docs, Mr Laing and I did look at both NVs and they're v good
We have all that material, we haven't put it into one

{so that indicates missing!  Mayor did say the info was somewhere in a different format and said try to get it to me but guess everyone's been too busy.}

but we'll be beginning work on that right away and we think we'll have the best one
Ccl is committed to review of Police Services; driven by NV and b/c they wish to see level WV has
We are the standard.
Question on second reading
Sop: polled vote, pls
[JF aye, JC nay, Mayor aye, RD aye, Sop nay, MS yes]
Mayor: now that's perfectly clear.  Third reading.
MS: in the interests of fair play, we have one cclt not present.  If we pass third reading, does that still give ppl an opportunity to comment on the budget at third reading?
RB: Ccl can comment at any portion, reading of the bylaw, whether first reading or final adoption.
Everyone has the opp to express their views to Ccl to share their concerns and if those concerns are such that an amendment required, then Ccl wd be able to do that at third reading by rescinding third reading
MS: then read a third time
Sop: polled vote
[JF aye, JC nay, Mayor aye, RD aye, Sop nay, MS yes]
Mayor: we will allow for discussion at adoption b/c Cclr V isn't here, and that's disappointing; we'll allow latitude

JF: approaching 10 o'clock move extend mtg
9:55 DONE
7.         Greenbelt Amendment - Martin Lands S/W Caulfeild Plateau
1.  Staff be authorized to proceed with notification and Alternative Approval Process to enable Council consideration of a park exchange and associated amendment of the greenbelt provisions on a portion of the Caulfeild Plateau Land Use contract as described in the March 18 report of the Associate Director of Major Projects and
2.   Subsequent to the required notification and Alternative Approval Process opportunity, Staff bring forward the required bylaws and documents for consideration by Council.

Sop: curious today, went out to site; area is in middle of devt, beautiful homes there
in reading the report no
Mr Sokol, p 85 the map, nine props, to dedesignate a portion that appears to be Lot 1
by dedesignation of park land, does that provide the dvpr with a new lot?
lots 2 to 8 -- does it decrease value of lot
Sokol: shifting of lot lines; no building, no change of parcels
the area shaded b/c of slope, grade of land can't be used as park as M intended

{This completely ignores the obvious question, and of course Mr Sokol was not there, if it's too steep or the slope/grade of land can't be used as a park, why did they designate it as a park in the first place?}

area added much more beneficial for M purposes
Sop: will that shaded area be a lot for building?
Sokol: cannot answer that question but they told me no
does it become a bonafide lot?
RB: I posed a similar question to the former Dir/Planning and it was explained to me the small portion on lot 1, unshaded, is buildable currently
b/c of terrain not much, minimal add'l value
Sop: but 5Ksf of prop -- when I look, maybe diagram is wrong
shows part of lot 1.  you're saying we'll give up?
RB: it currently is a buildable
Sokol: wd be able to build on portion not originally designated park
Sop what kind of house
RB: that's a fair-sized lot
Sop: is this a gain to the dvpr and a loss to the taxpayer
RB: we've been told there isn't; and Mr Nicholls is here to explain
SJN who magically emerged from the corridor: number of lots remains the same
.... rock wall here; this is beside path
we're gaining more space and we're getting land; giving away what wd be a liability
the dvpr has indicated already given more land for greenbelt
Stephen Jenkins and Parks Dept prefer this
Sop: area we're giving up in red, house on that location?
SJN: no, expanded; in 7, 8, 9 approved by Ccl when original greenbelt
unless this goes ahead, whole subdivision plan
8.  CONSENT AGENDA ITEMS  --  Consent Agenda Items - Reports and Correspondence
JF: withdraw item 52
9.         Appointment to North Shore Advisory Committee on Disability Issues
RECOMMENDED: John Bannister for the term January 1, 2008 to December 31, 2009.
10.       Appointment of Approving Officer and Deputy Approving Officers
RECOMMENDED: THAT the appointments of B. Sokol (Director of Planning, Lands and Permits) as Approving Officer and G. Boyle (Manager of Community Planning) and T. Tse (Land Development Engineer) as Deputy Approving Officers all with immediate effect be approved.
11.       Development Applications Status List
12.       Correspondence List [Complete list in previous issue of WVM]
Responses to Correspondence
(52)     E.S. Holitzki, Manager of Bylaw and Licensing Services, March 27, 2008, reply regarding Taxi Service
JF: not able to get timely taxi services
consumer; taxi bill of rights; a number of ppl in this cmnty, particularly elderly with mobility probs
copy of letter shd be sent to all, particularly Srs' Ctr
changes made to way ppl treated
RB: staff will be sending a submission along those lines
JF: if ppl calling taxis.

MS: first mtg of Cmnty Ctr governance group; fruitful and productive mtg; think that group will do a good job
Mayor: v exciting
JF: brief update on Sports WG; chaired by Mary Jo Campbell, three subcmtes Sports field allocations
capital improvement allocation
Sports Awards Wed Apr 30th 6:30pm Sentinel School Library
Mayor: long overdue
RD: Ccl workshop on Rodgers Crk on Thursday 6pm

Don McTavish asked more questions about a legal case, wondering if $1.5M in budget to pay contractor's claim on Aquatic Ctr plus legal fees, yet again told wd get letter and since a legal matter wd not be discussed at ccl mtg.  Told wd be covered by insurance but he said it wdn't be covered by insurance.  He asked if a stall and wd go on for ten years (saying that was a joke).
For next speaker, Mayor warned wrt FOI, Ccl not permitted to talk about who's applied or what the issue is, that's part of the FOI legislation.
Robert Barr: talk around legalities and talk about realities.  The Hugo Ray Park Area Residents' Assn found it nec to invoke the FOI Act to obtain information pertaining to the HRay Park redevt.  This occurred last Dec.  Legislation requires answer within 30 days; came and went
WV got extension b/c of volume of info they perceived required for this FOI
identified 5000 pieces of info and we were told wd cost $12-1500 and that has been paid
what have we received?
The Commissioner said will grant them an extension to middle of this month
He also said in view of volume of info, they can make partial submissions to applicant
in reality, to date we've received less than 2%, 100 pages
what are they? they are Ccl minutes, and two articles from the NSNews, things we have complete access to in public domain
{Strange.  I'm not familiar with the fine points but I thought FOI was for things NOT in the public domain but it may depend on how the request is worded.}
the info we want has not been forthcoming; can we expect an advance release of this info or are you just going to dump 5000 pages on our desk?  We feel--
Mayor: --I've already told you we really shdn't be discussing this in ccl chamber
reality is we have to find staff for this request; we're working to find someone to do this; huge job, that's what's taken time; big request, ev sgl email
will be getting you that as soon as we can find someone
RBarr: staff problem
Mayor: it's working through requirements huge task; wd like to provide you with a date
defer to Ms Scholes; it's ultimately her responsibility and her staffing
SSch: yes, resource problem wrt staffing
largest request we've ever received; legislative requirements for further extensions, looking at that; given the volume, a line by line review, can't give you a date until I have further info
Mayor: I see you've got water levy down here
RBarr: hope we can get issues rather than bulk
wd like to change hats; second item
Esker Lane is a 12-unit townhouse complex
as of April 2007 we were advised a new bulk water universal levy being applied in WV to all users and we found ourselves with a budget that was blown out of the water
received $4K add'l cost for nothing happening
universal rate resulted in extra cost to 12 units; some difficulty to some on fixed incomes
Strata A is a 14-unit strata ccl in the lower properties and they only received a slight hiccup in their financials; 14 units and they practically haven't even noticed
Mayor: so you're wondering--
Barr: -- one more.  Strata Ccl B has seen no increase, nothing added to expenses wrt this universal  bulk rate and there are 35 units
so here's a 35-unit complex not paying a thing and yet 12 units, a year ahead
how a universal tax when not across the board; seems v v unfair to me
RL: not sure one I'm thinking of, there's one, similar, another one we're looking at
do agree come across gross unfairness well look at
Mayor: we'll look at that, been a couple; glad you brought to our attn.  Mr Barth, will you follow up.
EB: the speaker cd give me his contact info at end of the mtg and I'd be happy to do that.
Mayor: marvellous, scope, but have had a few.
Mayor: Carolanne Reynolds
CR: thank you.  Listening to the budget discussion earlier after the public spoke, I was both astonished and confused
I don't think anybody -- well, I haven't read all the letters that have come in -- but I don't think anyone has suggested any staff salaries be cut and I think most of us are pleased with most of what the staff do, and I think that shd be made clearer.
I do think there were some questions on process.  
I was astonished to hear someone say
{Cclr JF, as you read above}
that all the information has bn provided that the public has asked for when I not only have had cclrs tell me they haven't got the information they wanted, cclrs this evening mentioned there was nothing, or that they haven't got something they asked for, and I and several others have detailed several things that we were still waiting for wch is why I ended my presentation by saying, since you had said, you wd get the info I was asking [for] when I asked on Mar 17th, and I still haven't got it, I was hoping, as I said, that that info wd be provided before second reading was passed b/c that's when you make amendments.
Whereas most of us wd be pleased with a deferral, when Cclr Smith mentioned that this cd be opened again at third reading, I suppose that's the fallback position b/c I was astonished since Cclr Vaughan was not here, you wdn't have at least paid the courtesy to wait till next Monday for the second reading b/c if you anticipate changing second or third reading next week, there's no difference then between deferring it from now to then.
I was quite astonished and confused b/c we haven't got all the information we asked for and one cclr said we had, wch seemed v confusing to me.
So the questions I do want to ask--
when do you think the inventory of M-owned land will be available?
as you heard earlier, someone said the remuneration report shd hv bn available a week ago, and it is still not.
I know I put 2006 remuneration information in West Van Matters 2007-25 last year and I sort of counted on the fact that they said the remuneration for this year wd be available a week ago
so I'm just confused
we can't say WE haven't got the information, and someone else say but you HAVE got the information, so we feel we have to come up
{keep in mind we can't say anything then, once Ccl starts debating even if they something that is not true or misinterpret what we say, we have to wait to the end of the mtg, to PQP to speak!}
and say, "no, I'm sorry, we DON'T have the information", and then we have to ask, "when will we receive the information?" and then if we receive it, [thus then able to make suggestions] will it be favourably welcomed as suggestions for saving money as Cclr Smith wants?
I mean he must realize, all of you must realize, that if we're lacking some of the info, that pretty well hobbles us from making the practical suggestions we wd like to make.  If we can't make practical suggestions when we've got all the info, then we know this is all we can do, but to not give us the info, and then blame us for not coming up with practical solutions does seem a little unfair, so my hope is--
Mayor: --I don't think anybody's laying any blame on anybody.  We've all reiterated that.
CR: okay. So.  when will we get the information we've asked for?
Mayor: on the land question, these are land deals, as I'm sure you are aware,
{did I say deals???}
so I'm not sure what that wd look like. Mr Beauchamp?
RB: regarding land inventory, staff have been working on land inventory
{amazing -- you mean they haven't a list???}
and normally the way the process wd work, when Ccl determined any land for disposition
{but I'm not asking about the disposition of the land!}
then there wd be public process for that, whether it's lane closure or disposition of property so it certainly wd become public info at that time.
{I didn't mention any of that!}
Mayor: as we go
CR: no, but that's a different question, that's not what I was asking--
Mayor: then I don't know the question --
CR: b/c there shd be an inventory of all the land [owned by the District].  It doesn't matter whether you're going to sell it or not.  We have the right to know what land the M owns.  What you do with it after that, that's a different process, I agree; but there shd be an inventory.
Mayor: not sure what you're actually looking for
CR: an inventory of all the land owned by the Municipality.  That's what was asked not only a year or so ago, but also at the ADRA AGM [in Feb]
EB: if I may, if it's simply a list of M-owned property, we shd be able to pull something together b/c I know my division was involved in trying to put together an inventory to assist Ccl in terms of looking at potential props that cd be sold.  I cd certainly go back and find out what the status of that is and try to get something out.
CR: thank you; simply a list, nothing to do with you want to do with it obviously
Sokol: the difficulty of that list is you do the initial cut of all the M-owned land and you get street ends, right-of-ways, and it's a matter of culling through that list to actually get to the point to determine--
Mayor: --and how much staff time
CR: normally, what I've been told is that most Ms do know what land they own, of course, and that shd be available.
{I can't imagine any biz not knowing what land they own, particularly a M govt that has jurisdiction over an area and collects taxes on parcels!  Wd simply be incompetence not to know -- they must know but why have they stalled for so long?}
And if somebody says we don't have all the street ends, that's fine, just give us what you have then, it doesn't have to be the whole list.
{UPDATE: the whole list was provided by the Dir/Engg to me, your editor, a couple of days later.  Most impressive and many thanks.}
Another thing I wanted to bring up tonight not mentioned -- The Cmnty Dialogue WG mtg wch was cancelled for tomorrow night and moved to 15th is now back on for the 8th tomorrow night, if anyone is interested in that.
In retrieving money, one of the other questions I got given an advertisement for a physiotherapy company, giving the address as the Aquatic Ctr.  Do we charge, do we have companies who actually rent places and use our M address as a biz address, and if we do, I hope we're getting market value for that.
KP: yes, we do and yes, we are.
CR: great, that's a good thing; tyvm

[Item 13, oral Ccl reports were received for information]
Mayor: I forgot to accept the Ccl reports.  in favour? carried

Mayor: Bruce McArthur.  v nice cover story
BMcA: I want to get a plug in for the WRA.  I'm also chair of the Horseshoe Bay - BC Ferries Corp liaison cmte, and I met with the terminal agent, Jason Bowman, this afternoon.  Dave Patrick and I went down and talked  with him over concerns in the area over noise generated by the new Coastal Renaissance ferry.  Mr Bowman was v obliging and passed the info to us that they're going through some base-line sound studies, and that we were going to try to work together with the cmte, and as Mr Barth is also on the liaison cmte, thought I wd let Ccl know the WRA is trying to gather information and we're working with the terminal agent.  Ferries has been v cooperative in trying to work with the cmnty and just thought I'd pass that on.
Mayor: appreciate that; he phoned me last week and mentioned he was going to contact you and I really think we have to thank Mr Bowman and you for forging that relationship.  It's a marked difference, I think, the attn we're getting from BC Ferries in the nbrhd.

===  RODGERS CRK AREA WG CCL WORKSHOP [Abbreviated Version]
{As they say: check against delivery.  I was madly typing as they spoke.  I do have notes for the whole mtg but too long for here.  Some WG and staff reports are on the DWV website.}
Presentation  of the Plan; told this on the DWV website.
>>> Report on "Green" --
>>> Traffic Impact Report --
incredibly to my mind, said there was a slight increase in units (slight, 538 to 736?), and a slight increase in traffic, five to eight add'l trips on Taylor Way during the AM rush hour for 736 units as compared to 538 (again hard for me to believe).
>>> The Public Realm Report  -- by Geri Boyle (Planning Staff)
Chippendale will be built to connect with Cypress Bowl Rd, narrow roads will discourage speeding; open space, paths, activity nodes; 55% green; connections between nodes, paths; narrow more rural; stabilize forest edge, fabulous views but to retain green must have trees so manage those two desires; bear-proof designs; Cmnty Benefit  aspect still a work in progress {why not concurrent?} just late this afternoon report where we're at; oversizing piping system for dealing with stormwater; ... maybe suggest some cash for activities or facilities or arts and culture throughout the cmnty; amenity buildings in Areas 5 and 6; something for Ccl to discuss during deliberation; will get that on the Web for ppl to look at
>>> Fiscal Impact Report
Tom Reid of Sussex [6:59; slides] I was engaged by the District itself
used 2007 figures, latest numbers we had; 2007 assessment, tax rates; took snapshot; instant devt three devt scenarios: option A and option B, but we do have a third, present zoning
Current zoning 375 dwellings; Option A = 538 units; Option B = 736 units
{At this point my ears picked up.  Apparently he looked at the zoning and allowed is 375 units -- never mentioned at WG mtgs I attended so must hv bn discarded early.  Whenever I was there 538 was discussed and then 736 units was Option B desirable b/c 'diversity'.  Wonder if that's b/c the zoning has 2.5upa on the buildable portion and that's been parlayed into the total area instead.  That may mean 140 acres used for calculation of 2.5upa.}
[slides with details, graphs, comparisons]
>>> Rodgers Creek Area Plan WG Report [7:22]
Frank Musson (mbr of WG) outlined the WG guidelines, our mandate: create a strong cmnty; connection to mtn; diversity; economic and envtal sustainability.  He listed the nine recommendations.
landowners followed...rationale for 2.5upa and the 1.85Msqft
physical plan did not meet objectives of bldg types
increase number of units; larger than meet acceptable objectives
ht, mass bulk of bldgs remain same, footprint virtually identical
WG feels OCP objectives not met by option A; landowners content to move forward with this option
{in what way not met???}
Sop remarked hoped not faced with costs and deadlines and staff said that BPP will devp it themselves.  Staff also said "draft bylaws and then talk about specific bylaws".
BPP says want to get started on Areas 1 and 2 asap and then Areas 3 - 5 in five to ten years.
Sop: amenities appear to be considerably low in return for what WV expects; I'm looking to future for amenities along the way...
Mayor asked for a summary of amenities
Sop asked why coach houses not included in units.
{Good question!}
GB; suggestion of not including, came from WG
ANSWER was that no rental, opportunity to set a precedent otherwise no doubt this cmnty an exclusive area
JC, JF, RD said great.
VV asked about the firehall -- cd mean net cost, not gain
Mayor asked Cclr Smith if he had any questions but he said that this was the night for the public and he'd leave his questions till Monday.
The first man reiterated complaints about trucks and noise that he'd made starting from Jan 2006
Gordon Ward-Hall: referred to the calculations of the square footage (375 single-fam homes allowed so used 5000 sq ft each); at 736 units it's twice that permitted by present zoning; concerned about the precedent and wondered if meant with other areas being developed that meant  WV popn of 60 - 70K.
{The whole Upper Lands were anticipated to have 4000 units; Rodgers Creek is about one-eighth of the UL area.  Staff said thought popn wd be in 52 to 57K.}
J McCarthy hoped for public transportation snr groups depend on, expressed concern about effect of mtn bike activities on salmon streams, whether or not there wd be bridges and who wd be in control.
wrt impact of construction on salmon streams and rivers, the worst example is the damage done by the Upper Levels Hwy wch impacted streams we're still getting over.
Staff said no ATVs
Ch of Commerce said positive thing, understand further cost-benefit reports and expect to see net benefit through amenities and taxes; supports sustainability protecting envmt and nbrhds..
BPAHA looks to the completion of the Chippendale connector; no doubt greater need for variety of housing; future village; fifth firehall?
First expressed thanks and appreciation -- lot of work by many
Pity not hearing answers to Cclr Smith's questions b/c wd be helpful/interesting.
My remarks are not to be viewed as a preference for any of the three possibilities; asking questions.
Green area good; what percentage when paths deducted?
Current zoning is 375 units, Option A is 538, Option B is 736
It's an insult to intelligence to say 736 is needed for diversity of housing.  Diversity can be provided with 375 as well!
Option A is about 30% more than the permitted zoning; and 375 is about 50%, half of 736
{I think I said this incorrectly; I may have said 736 is an increase of 50% from 375, but in fact it's almost a 100% more, ie double, as Gordon said above.  Apologies for mistake/confusion.  Option B  at 736 that's being proposed is almost TWICE permitted zoning which is why I asked:}
 -- where is the Uplift calculation (promised wd be part of process)? 
{to have some idea of share for WV residents}
The Upper Lands were to be cmnty nodes.  Traffic already is plugged North/South, down 15th and 21st; perhaps the Village {just west of this devt} cd be started along with this so they have less need to add to their congestion.
wrt Stormwater management, our creeks have been handling storms for a long time.  Rather than only pipes perhaps accommodate them as much as possible.  Have trees to absorb and retain water.  Esp since have been flooding below devts after trees removed.  Pls include monitoring of creek protection.
Perhaps I misheard but I find it difficult to believe that 736 units only adds seven or eight cars.
Also can't understand why coach houses, infill, not counted as units!  What if they all wanted them?  There ought to be a limit, a proportion at the v least.
As for Cclr V's questions about cost of another firehall, the cost of staffing shd also be included
If this will be on the ccl agenda Monday, when will we see the reports? 
ANSWERS: Some just finished, some on website; wrt Uplift calculations, unlike Ev Dr; Cmnty Benefits report will be on website tomorrow
Mark Ballard, realtor, said "completely archaic to be going to a certain upa without sq ftg" and asked "are we utilizing that potential sq ftg best for public?" "Diversity with 375 against odds and dvpr has to make money".  Three sons, want them to be able to live here; grandchn too.  Try to stick to something that gives a balanced outlook.
Bruce McArthur said that the Fire and Rescue WG report wd come to Ccl Monday but WG "more or less decided can live with existing conditions", a fifth firehall might be nec if devt above the Upper Levels Hwy; plan for BPP or all owners of the area?
"this bit about options A and B has me confused and hv questions about two other owners; got presentation, a BPP presentation, and not sure they piggy back or have their own
the way it's put together, the difference between A and B: difference is 20% increase, and the other owners about a 60% increase; doesn't seem proportionate.
ANSWERS: plan is for whole area even though BPP is the largest landowner; prefer not to arbitrate between owners.
Jasmine Osterman (sp?) lives on Chippendale Rd, a Whitby resident; love where I live, beautiful cmnty;
was supposed to be a traffic mgmt plan but it's not working; 100 trucks a day; dump truck hit a postal truck damaged property.  Connector?
"I implore you not allowing any further devt until first and foremost this alternative met; timely manner, set timelines, and hold all parties accountable; devpr has right to devp land but nbrhd right to peace; wrt envtal, seen a lot of sediment and dirt, trucks spew out sand and dust; only seen M streetcleaners twice in several months of construction, not adequate; you can bet streambeds affected, plugged drains; not envtal sensitive."
Mayor said she'd follow up.
Ali Shahidi; city planner; want to know what the purpose is of this devt and who gets benefit; shd be studied more by envmt expert; traffic in relation with City of Vancouver
Maor: is this the end of the WG's work?
GB: have given report
At end Mayor said Cclr Clark quite right, much better process to achieve better for cmnty.
Complexity, sustainability; big discussion, prepared us v well.  This returns to Ccl Monday night.
{Dear Readers: read the reports, read the Community Benefits/Amenity report, ie what's in it for us (besides housing choices if we want to move) so that you can comment Monday night since info incomplete.  Wd guess that Ccl might be directing staff to prepare the bylaws, so best to get your views known asap in case opportunity to include them or a version of them.}

===   COUNCIL AGENDA  Apr 14th   ===
3.  Rodgers Creek Area Development Plan --  Information to be provided.
{no surprise b/c it wasn't all available at the wkshop Thursday but I wish they'd stop doing this -- delay the dang mtg until after info is available for public to review -- and for Ccl too!  Ccl even said they hadn't got some of the info until about an hour before the wkshop! and more to come!}                                         
4.         Update on Fire Department Shared Services Review and Fire and Rescue Services Working Group Report
RECOMMENDED: be received for information and that staff review the recommendations in the Working Group Report and report back to Council.
5.         Old Growth Conservancy 'Strategy for Protection' - Recommended Courses of Action            RECOMMENDED THAT:
1.                Approval be granted for the retention of Trail "A" in the southeast corner of the Old Growth Conservancy, as shown in the Appendix attached to the report from the Park Programs Manager dated April 2
2.                  Staff work in partnership with the Old Growth Conservancy Society and the North Shore Mountain Bike Association to clarify the route of Trail "A" and safeguard conservation objectives established by Council for the Old Growth Conservancy.
6.         Cancellation of April 16 Special Council Mtg and Scheduling of May 1, 2008 Special Council Mtg
RECOMMENDED: April 16, 2008 Sp Ccl Mtg be cancelled, and a Sp Mtg be scheduled for Thurs, May 1 at 10am
7.         Financial Information Act Reports 2007 (File:  0907-01)
RECOMMENDED: THAT Council approve the schedules and statements included in the Statement of Financial Information for 2007, as attached.
8.         5 Year Financial Plan Bylaw No. 4549, 2008             
            This bylaw received first reading at the March 17, 2008 Council meeting.  At the April 7, 2008 Council meeting the bylaw was amended, read a second time, as amended and read a third time.
RECOMMENDED: THAT "[Five-]Year Financial Plan Bylaw No. 4549, 2008" be adopted.
[PLEASE DEFER!  Cclr V just back and we need not only to get all the information we've been asking for, but at least a week to review it!!! Cclrs Clark and Sop wanted a deferral Apr 7, and am sure Cclr V wd have too, so now we have to depend on the Mayor -- and her commitment to the public to give more time -- there's still more than a month till the deadline.]
9.         Correspondence List for Consent Agenda
Requests for Delegation -- No items presented.
Action Required
(1)       L.E. Jackson, Chair - Metro Vancouver Board, March 25, 2008, regarding Endorsement of the Federation of Canadian Municipalities National Action Plan on Housing and Homelessness
Referred to Mayor and Council for consideration and response.  Attachments available for viewing in the Legislative Services Department.
(2)       Honourable M. Jaffer, Senator - Govt of Canada, March 28, re Proclamation of April 25 as World Malaria Day
Referred to the Municipal Clerk for response.
(3)       March 30, 2008, regarding Frequent Noisy Events in Ambleside Park
Referred to the Director of Parks & Community Services for consideration and response.
(4)       March 30, 2008, regarding Noise Bylaw - Loud Music from Ambleside Park
Referred to the Director of Administrative Services for consideration and response.
(5)       Mayor R. Drew, Chair - Lower Mainland Treaty Advisory Committee (LMTAC), March 31, 2008, regarding LMTAC Draft Discussion Paper - Developing a Local Government Perspective on Cooperative Management Agreements with First Nations
Referred to the Director of Administrative Services for consideration and response.  Attachments available for viewing in the Legislative Services Department.
(6)       March 31, 2008, regarding 11th Street Still Closed - Marine Drive Gateway Project
Referred to the Director of Engineering and Transportation for consideration and response.
No Action Required (receipt only)
(7)       Committee and Board Meeting Minutes
(a)       North Shore Advisory Committee on Disability Issues - February 28, 2008
(8)       L.E. Jackson, Chair - Metro Vancouver Board, March 14, 2008, regarding Invitation to Public Meetings regarding the Liquid and Solid Waste Management Plans
(9)       Mayor D.R. Corrigan, City of Burnaby, March 25, 2008, regarding Evergreen Line Rapid Transit Project Business Case
Attachments available for viewing in the Legislative Services Department.
(10)     March 26, 2008, regarding Rodgers Creek 87 Hectares Development Proposed by British Pacific Properties
(11)     Petition (6) Names, March 30, 2008, regarding Ambleside Park - Noisy Events
(12)     H. Dunsford, Coho Society of the North Shore, April 01, 2008, regarding Invitation to Attend: Annual General Meeting, April 16, 2008
(13)     J.A. Roberts, Regional Steering Committee on Homelessness - Metro Vancouver Homelessness Secretariat, April 04, 2008, regarding Notice of News Conference: 2008 Homeless Count Numbers
CPTnet  10 April 2008  HEBRON: Press conference for Hebron orphanages
     The Popular Committee for Supporting the Orphanages hosted a press conference at the Hebron Girls Orphanage on 7 April 2008. Approximately seventy people attended, including independent media, internationals, and clergy. The Israeli military had given orders to shut down the orphanages and schools run by the Islamic Charitable Society by 7 April.
     The lawyer representing the Islamic Charitable Society spoke of the its work, which serves 2,500 children, 240 of them orphans, and aids an additional 4,000 students and 5,000 needy families. The society also runs a dairy, two bakeries, a warehouse, and four small storefronts that serve the schools and orphanages in the Hebron area. The Israeli military raided the warehouse, bakeries, and the storefronts on 6 March 2008, confiscating food, clothing, school supplies, refrigerators, and two buses worth $300,000.
     The lawyer also noted that certified public accountants audit and the Palestinian Authority monitors the monies donated to support the orphanages and schools. The books are open for the Israeli government to audit as well. Twenty percent of the monies donated come from the Hebron local community. The other eighty percent comes from Europe, the U.S., and Middle Eastern countries. The Islamic Charitable Society enjoys the respect of both locals and non-governmental organizations such as Catholic Charities.
     During the conference, Rabbi Arik Ascherman of Rabbis for Human Rights addressed the audience via speakerphone, saying that under Jewish law, evidence and witnesses must be brought before the court to support an accusation. Because the Islamic Charitable Society has threatened no human life, Ascherman contended, the Israeli authorities cannot cite security issues to justify a closure.
     Members of CPT and other internationals have slept at the orphanages to accompany the staff and children and to document any possible incursion by the Israeli military. By midnight of 7 April, the attorney for the Israeli military had asked for an extension to prepare and submit to the court a full justification for the closures of the schools and orphanages.
CPT's MISSION: "Getting in the Way." What would happen if Christians devoted the same discipline and sacrifice to nonviolent peacemaking that armies devote to war? Christian Peacemaker Teams (CPT) seeks to enlist the whole church in organized, nonviolent alternatives to war and places teams of trained peacemakers in regions of lethal conflict.
COMMENTS: To ask questions or express concerns, criticisms and affirmations send messages to peacemakers@cpt.org.

===   BOOKWATCH   ===  Review from NYT Review of Books
Bhutto and the Future of Islam
                By FAREED ZAKARIA Published: April 6, 2008
Picture the moment. It is Dec. 2, 1988. A beautiful woman, 35 years old, walks into the presidential palace in Islamabad, Pakistan's capital, flanked by liveried and turbaned honor guards. She is wearing a green silk tunic and a white gauzy shawl that barely covers her hair. She speaks flawless Urdu and English, her English perfected as an undergraduate at Radcliffe and then as a student at Oxford, where she was president of the Oxford Union. She is intelligent, erudite and intensely charismatic. And she is about to take the oath of office to become the first woman in history to lead a modern Muslim country.
The idea of Benazir Bhutto has always been more powerful than the reality. Bhutto, who was assassinated last December while campaigning in Rawalpindi, seemed to many of her admirers in the West to be the consummate liberal. But she was also the descendant of one of the oldest and most thoroughly feudal families in the Sind province. The size of her family's landholdings had stunned the British general Charles Napier, who conquered the province for Queen Victoria in 1843. She inherited the leadership of the Pakistan People's Party from her father, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, Pakistan's first elected prime minister, and ran it like a personal fiefdom. She was president-for-life, allowed no internal party elections and in her will bequeathed her party to her 19-year-old son, Bilawal, who has spent most of his life outside Pakistan.
Fareed Zakaria is the editor of Newsweek International. His new book, "The Post-American World," will be published next month.
also  http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/benazir_bhutto/index.html

===  Answering children's questions: what is butt dust?
 > JACK (age 3) was watching his Mom breast-feeding his new baby sister.  After a while, he asked: "Mom why have you got two?
Is one for hot and one for cold milk?"
> MELANIE (age 5) asked her Granny how old she was.
Granny replied she was so old she didn't remember any more.  Melanie said, "If you don't remember, you must look in the back of your panties.Mine say five to six."
> STEVEN (age 3) hugged and kissed his Mom good night. "I love you so much that, when you die, I'm going to bury you outside my bedroom window."
> BRITTANY (age 4) had an earache and wanted a pain killer.  She tried in vain to take the lid off the bottle.  Seeing her frustration, her Mom explained it was a child-proof cap, and she'd have to open it for her.  Eyes wide with wonder, the little girl asked, "How does it know it's me?"
> SUSAN (age 4) was drinking juice when she got the hiccups.  "Please don't give me this juice again," she said.  "It makes my teeth cough."                   
> DJ (age 4) stepped onto the bathroom scale and asked, "How much do I cost?"
> MARC (age 4) was engrossed in a young couple that was hugging and kissing in a restaurant.  Without taking his eyes off them, he asked his dad, "Why is he whispering in her mouth?"
> CLINTON (age 5) was in his bedroom looking worried. When his Mom asked what was troubling him, he replied, "I don't know what'll happen with this bed when I get married.  How will my wife fit in?"                    
> JAMES (age 4) was listening to a Bible story.  His dad read, "The man named Lot was warned to take his wife and flee out of the city, but his wife looked back and was turned to salt."  Concerned, James asked, "What happened to the flea?"
> TAMMY (age 4) was with her mother when they met an elderly, rather-wrinkled woman her Mom knew.  Tammy looked at her for a while and then asked, "Why doesn't your skin fit your face?"
> The Sermon I think this Mom will never forget ...  this particular Sunday sermon ...
"Dear Lord," the minister began, with arms extended toward heaven and a rapturous look on his upturned face. "Without you, we are but dust ..."  He would have continued but, at that moment, my very obedient daughter, who was listening, leaned over to me and asked quite audibly in her shrill, little, four-year-old-girl voice, "Mom, what is butt dust?"

===  POLITI-KU --  2008 Apr 8 --  thinking of Kenya and now Zimbabwe

                the aim of the ballot box
                        to prevent battles
                                shame when you have both
===  HAIKU --  2008 Apr 10

                        sun slowly warms tree
                                swollen buds' pink tips
                                        cherry blossoms near bursting
===   QUOTATIONS   ===
Popular Saying:  Tell your boss the truth, and the truth shall set you free.
Don't know who said this:  In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is freedom, in water there is bacteria.